Legal question - quotations
- Thread starter malladin
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trancejeremy
Adventurer
That's actually a good question. There doesn't seem to be any legal disclaimer in Vampire, but I've seen them for quotations in some books, like Stephen Kings (like Christine, was full of car song quotes).
I used some in my recent spycraft review over on RPG.net, and I haven't been sued yet.
Actually, Spycraft itself uses quotes, and while it attributes them on the front page, it doesn't say "Appears with permission from" like it does in the SK novels.
Really, it can probably be considered fair use, and also probably not worth bothering with, from the owning companies' point of view. They often don't seem to mind people using actual sound samples from movies
I used some in my recent spycraft review over on RPG.net, and I haven't been sued yet.
Actually, Spycraft itself uses quotes, and while it attributes them on the front page, it doesn't say "Appears with permission from" like it does in the SK novels.
Really, it can probably be considered fair use, and also probably not worth bothering with, from the owning companies' point of view. They often don't seem to mind people using actual sound samples from movies
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trancejeremy
Adventurer
Just don't use an Abba song. They seem to be the only ones that care.
The Sigil
Mr. 3000 (Words per post)
IANAL. TINLA.
If I include a "Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time?" (from Tolkien) what provision of the OGL have I violated?
Certainly not Section 7...
Now, can I attribute it to J.R.R. Tolkien?
Again, I think the answer is "yes."
Section 7 is not violated above because the OGL has a specific meaning attached to Trademark...
Remember, the Open Game License is basically what you would use as a legal shield to defend yourself should someone accuse you of infringing upon their copyright... you can simply say, "here is the license, I have complied with the terms, therefore I have your permission, therefore it is not infringement." It is NOT, however, the only shield that can be used; Fair Use can also be used as a legal shield; in the above scenario, I could (probably) argue that the quick excerpt from Tolkien falls under "Fair Use" and as such I am not infringing.
I could also list Tolkien in a Bibliography of sources, as I have not used any OGC contributed by him and thus do not need to worry about no use of his Trademarks outside Section 15 credits.
Interestingly, I think it could be possible to read the OGL as allowing you to make "Fair Use" including listing in a bibliography - ANY work, OGL or not, provided you did not use OGC from that particular work and none of the terms/company names etc. appear as PI or Trademarks in works you DID use, since you are agreeing to the terms of the OGL in return for the ability to re-use OGC. If you don't use OGC from Source A, there is no reason to assume you agreed not to use the PI and Trademarks listed in Source A. Does this make sense? I.e., since "J.R.R. Tolkien" is not a Trademark or PI designation attached to OGC I have re-used, I am in the clear to make use of it under normal Fair Use laws (I am NOT free to designate it as OGC, since it is not "mine," but I can make non-infringing Fair Use of it).
Again, this is speculative, and only a court decision would definitively answer this, and IANAL, TINLA... but it seems to me that "Fair Use" is acceptable alongside the OGL. You would just have to make sure that you didn't designate the stuff "Fair Use" gives you as Open Game Content.
--The Sigil
Really?tensen said:
If I include a "Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time?" (from Tolkien) what provision of the OGL have I violated?
Certainly not Section 7...
The phrase is not Product Identity, as Tolkien's work has never been released under the OGL and therefore is not product identity (nor is it OGC).
Now, can I attribute it to J.R.R. Tolkien?
Again, I think the answer is "yes."
Section 7 is not violated above because the OGL has a specific meaning attached to Trademark...
Again, Tolkien is not a Contributor under the Open Game License, so his trademarks, et al, do not fall under the scope of section 7.
Remember, the Open Game License is basically what you would use as a legal shield to defend yourself should someone accuse you of infringing upon their copyright... you can simply say, "here is the license, I have complied with the terms, therefore I have your permission, therefore it is not infringement." It is NOT, however, the only shield that can be used; Fair Use can also be used as a legal shield; in the above scenario, I could (probably) argue that the quick excerpt from Tolkien falls under "Fair Use" and as such I am not infringing.
I could also list Tolkien in a Bibliography of sources, as I have not used any OGC contributed by him and thus do not need to worry about no use of his Trademarks outside Section 15 credits.
Interestingly, I think it could be possible to read the OGL as allowing you to make "Fair Use" including listing in a bibliography - ANY work, OGL or not, provided you did not use OGC from that particular work and none of the terms/company names etc. appear as PI or Trademarks in works you DID use, since you are agreeing to the terms of the OGL in return for the ability to re-use OGC. If you don't use OGC from Source A, there is no reason to assume you agreed not to use the PI and Trademarks listed in Source A. Does this make sense? I.e., since "J.R.R. Tolkien" is not a Trademark or PI designation attached to OGC I have re-used, I am in the clear to make use of it under normal Fair Use laws (I am NOT free to designate it as OGC, since it is not "mine," but I can make non-infringing Fair Use of it).
Again, this is speculative, and only a court decision would definitively answer this, and IANAL, TINLA... but it seems to me that "Fair Use" is acceptable alongside the OGL. You would just have to make sure that you didn't designate the stuff "Fair Use" gives you as Open Game Content.
--The Sigil
Ranger REG
Explorer
I concur with The Sigil. If a Work contains a OGL, anything that is not designated OGC or PI falls under the normal copyright and trademark law, that includes Fair Use.
It is possible that you can use quotation from a medium (book, TV, film, etc.), as long it is brief and does not take away the value of the works you quoted from. Still, Fair Use is a complex doctrine. It's best to consult a lawyer in the matter. Otherwise, the safest course is to obtain permission from the IP owner (the author or the estate).
It is possible that you can use quotation from a medium (book, TV, film, etc.), as long it is brief and does not take away the value of the works you quoted from. Still, Fair Use is a complex doctrine. It's best to consult a lawyer in the matter. Otherwise, the safest course is to obtain permission from the IP owner (the author or the estate).
Justin D. Jacobson
First Post
Let me say, in the interest of full disclosure, I am a lawyer. But, I specialize in debt collection, not IP. On the other hand, I did have a class in IP. But, then again, I believe I got a C in it. 
(Mostly, that was for Dana, who seems to have a big problem with me espousing on such issues.)
I concur with Sigil's assessment in its entirety. I used brief quotations in my book; Monte has done it as well (though in most if not all cases they are quotes from older works, not subject to copyright considerations).
If you want to check out a well-written explanation of the fair use doctrine, check out this web page. As you can see, whether your use of the quoted material constitutes "fair use" depends on a variet of factors.
(Mostly, that was for Dana, who seems to have a big problem with me espousing on such issues.)I concur with Sigil's assessment in its entirety. I used brief quotations in my book; Monte has done it as well (though in most if not all cases they are quotes from older works, not subject to copyright considerations).
If you want to check out a well-written explanation of the fair use doctrine, check out this web page. As you can see, whether your use of the quoted material constitutes "fair use" depends on a variet of factors.
Justin D. Jacobson
First Post
Just wanted to add two more things:
1) If you use quoted material, you certainly need to include attribution to the author. Failure to do that, in addition to whatever else it may be, is plaigarism.
2) TJ: The issue of using quoted material in a review is specifically covered by the web page article; check it out.
1) If you use quoted material, you certainly need to include attribution to the author. Failure to do that, in addition to whatever else it may be, is plaigarism.
2) TJ: The issue of using quoted material in a review is specifically covered by the web page article; check it out.
Justin D. Jacobson said:
Just wanted to jump in here. IANAL but I have been deeply involved in following IP matters for several years.
Public domain works, such as the works of Shakespeare, Hans Christian Andersen, the Bible, and so forth may be quoted, reprinted in their entirety, rewritten, folded, spindled, and mutilated in any way you desire.
You do not have to include attribution for public domain works, though of course it is the scholarly and honest thing to do. Works up through about 1930 are public domain throughout the world. After that thinks get murkier and terms vary worldwide, with the US pretty much the most restrictive. Your best source of public domain texts is probably Project Gutenberg. Many early fantasy and science fiction works are public domain.
Creative Commons works vary in their terms, but Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike are very common (see, for example, the novels of Cory Doctorow); note that commercial usage in such cases falls under the usual copyright regime - if you're publishing a fan/community work and not for profit you may be able to draw on this body of work. Though less plentiful, I've been able to find plenty of work without the NonCommercial clause (meaning that reuse in a commercial context is just fine). All the art appearing in my campaign setting, for example, is Creative Commons licensed artwork I found on the Web under the Attribution-only license (I can reuse it freely as long as I attribute it to the original artist).
Remember that the doctrine of fair use is not defined the same worldwide; in some countries it does not even exist. I know that most publishers are based in the US, but something to bear in mind if you, like myself, are sitting in some other country.
In the US, there are a number of film works that entered the public domain; you can get a list of them (as well as the film itself) from the Internet Archive. In New Zealand, which is not a member of the Berne Convention, any audio or video recording 50 years old or older is public domain, including Gone With the Wind, Casablanca, and the Wizard of Oz (the original book has long since passed into the public domain).
I'm specifically mentioning public domain and Creative Commons works because with them, you do not have any of the legal entanglements or obligations you may incur with works under copyright. And in many cases, movies and television quotes draw upon material that may be available under less restrictive terms. The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, for example, draws many of its quotes from the public domain works that it reuses. Babylon 5, for another, frequently quotes sci-fi and fantasy stories (the techno-mage quoting Gandalf is one of my favorites), many of which may now be available in the public domain (I think but am not certain that the works of Alfred Bester have moved to the public domain).
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