D&D 5E Legends and Lore July 28: Keeping it Classy

[Li Shenron]

Is this rumor, or do we know for a fact this is planned? And do we know if it includes guidelines for mixing features from subclasses of two separate parent classes? (I'm bugged that, from what we've heard/seen, the druid lacks an animal companion option like the ranger has. )

Yes, it's confirmed but supposedly only with relationship with mixing subclasses of the same base class.

That's because it's easier, since some subclasses alter the base class following the same pattern (e.g. cleric domains, all of which grant domain spells, additional channeling options etc.), and because many subclass features just improve/expand features of the base class and are not applicable to other classes.

But on the other hand, it's clearly possible to also mix subclasses of different classes, only more difficult because you have to check each feature individually, if it's applicable to the other class as well. Also, it might become evident later than some class has more potent subclasses (not just in terms of number of levels worth of feature).

I don't think the guidelines will go this far, at most they will tell you that you can try. I don't know exactly what's in the Ranger Beastmaster subclass, but if its features are not built upon other Ranger abilities (that a Druid doesn't also have), I guess it's perfectly doable to splice the Beastmaster as a whole onto the Druid (just check the levels worth of features are the same, or adjust).

 

[jadrax]

The many thing that get me is... these were in earlier playtest.
Why'd they take them out?

At a guess, most play testers thought they were largely redundant.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Well, yes and no. You only get one sub-class per class and only at third level (presumable to reduce the temptation of dipping for sub-classes.) But you could theoretically pick up 6 sub-classes by 18th level if you were so inclined. And rolled really really well for stats, since you need to meet the prerequisites and spent your whole carrier dodging stat boosts.

At any rate the point is you can pick up more than one sub-class but it requires extensive multi-classing, which has it's own baked in disincentives.

Touche!

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Actually, sneak attack restricts you to finesse and ranged weapons. Finesse lets you use either Str or Dex for attack and damage, it doesn't require Dex.

So you can do a sneak attacking half-orc brute, no problem.

Oh, that's smart, I like it!

Because I am sick of Alpha being cited as the authority on this, even though it is both an illegally obtained document and a known-to-be-inaccurate one, I decided to Tweet Mike Mearls and simply ask him if there will be any strength-based option for rogues. Because direct from the source is better than what we're getting from Alpha quotes.

Thank you, Mistwell. It'll be interesting to know the results but at this point, don't we know the options, and that they're Burglar (or whatever it's called), Assassin and Arcane Trickster. Still as [MENTION=205]TwoSix[/MENTION] and [MENTION=7635]Remathilis[/MENTION] pointed out, you can just use a Finesse weapon with STR! Still leaves Hand Axes in the cold (unfortunately), but that's an easy House Rule.

 

[Alessandro Guarita]

I feel a little disappointed about the quantity for some classes. But still the book is huge in page numbers, so I can understand.

Obviously we'll see splat books with new subclasses. Specially race focused subclasses (like Dwarven Defender).

On the other hand I feel happy to see all schools of magic under the wizard umbrella. Specially we'll see summon back and with bounded accuracy this can be way more powerful than on 3.x.

And, as a DM I get excited about the "nature paladin" concept. I can imagine a nature protective circle with druids as leaders, rangers as scouts, paladins as defender and clerics as healers.

Other cools concepts, but with multiclass:
* barbarian (totem) and druid (moon): a barbarian that change to the shape of his totem animal.
* barbarian (totem) and ranger (beastmaster): instead of changeshape, you have an animal companion.
* rogue (assassin) and monk (shadow): ninja archetype.

 

[Minigiant]

At a guess, most play testers thought they were largely redundant.

Well then either the playtesters or designers have no sense of history.

The Dex/Cha rogue has been a thing for 2 editions.

And the acrobat is even older.

 

[jadrax]

Well then either the playtesters or designers have no sense of history.

The Dex/Cha rogue has been a thing for 2 editions.

And the acrobat is even older.

You do not need a sub-class to play a Dex/Cha Rogue.

You do not need a sub-class to play an acrobat.

 

[Li Shenron]

At a guess, most play testers thought they were largely redundant.

I don't think this is the case. At some point IIRC those Rogue subclasses were granting feats (probably when these were still small), skills (or a second background), one unique benefit and maybe equipment. The the whole concept of subclasses developed further (into a progression of unique benefits), and probably those had to be redesigned from scratch.

At the same time, some stuff moved from subclass to class or viceversa, as the designers changed their mind about what is iconic enough to be available to all Rogues and what better goes into a subgroup.

Something similar happened to the Fighter, which originally had Fighting Styles as subclasses, but later on they decided to greatly expand the flexibility of subclasses, and re-introduced Fighting Styles as a separate (lesser) choice point, and not only for Fighters.

IMHO the real reason why we only have 3 Rogue subclasses is that they simply didn't have enough design time and book space for more. They decided to have all Wizard schools and a decent bunch of clerical domains, but for all others they settled for 2-3 subclasses.

I would have so much wanted more subclasses, but honestly I don't know what I would have cut from the book... maybe a couple of races, but certainly not the backgrounds, not the feats, not the spells, and not the rules (even the appendixes look great to me). I would have probably increased the PHB by 30 pages like they do with the MM

 

[Ruin Explorer]

You do not need a sub-class to play a Dex/Cha Rogue.

You do not need a sub-class to play an acrobat.

You don't need a sub-class to play a Transmuter or a Cleric of the War God or a Fighter who cast spells or a Fighter who helps his friends, or a Rogue who assassinates people, but those subclasses all exist. Let's not pretend subclasses exist solely because of "need".

 

[Dausuul]

Te Artful Dodged build. This is the Improved Feint rogue of 3e and the Artful rogue rogue of 4e. Feint as a Cunning action would be good. Same with Charisma to damage if you feint.bonus languages and fast talking. A lot is there.

I agree that we should have had a "con man" rogue option. That's a definite lack.

The Strength rogue. This is the rogue who takes a weapon proficiency feat in 3e or the brutal scoundrel of 4e or the melee rogue of 1e and 2e. A lot of overlap with the thug. Medium armor and Sneak Attack with a longsword or battleaxe.

Another lack, but it doesn't require a subclass. The only reason we don't already have this is the weapon restriction on Sneak Attack, which I suspect is in there because Sneak Attacking with a greatsword dealt too much damage. I hope they'll figure out a solution to that. In the meantime, I don't see a problem with house-ruling that all one-handed weapons can be used for SA.

The Scout. This is the scout class and wilderness rogue of 3e, the 4e rogue with tons of movement powers, or the "noncombat" rogue of earlier editions. Bonus speeds. Tracking. Skrimishing. Search as a Cunning action.

Also known as the "Thief rogue with expertise in Survival." Multiclass ranger for extra scouty goodness. You really need an entire subclass for this? Thieves are already very good at movement and skirmishing.

The Acrobat. Well the thief stole have his stuff. The Scout with take half what is left. And the monk left of what's left after the other two is done. Acrobatic charges. Balance class features. Leaps and controlled falls. Redundant if you include the scout and aren't creative.

Also known as the "Thief rogue with expertise in Acrobatics." See previous comment about movement and skirmishing. If you want super-magic-acrobatics, multiclass monk. Again, I don't see why this requires a whole separate rogue subclass.