Legends and Lore - Nod To Realism

[Nemesis Destiny]

Read post 282 by Balesir.
The rules say exactly that.

The rules say the flavour is malleable, not that it is unimportant. It is you who are saying that because the fluff is not fixed that it is somehow less important. Again, I say that is something that is, and has always been, up to individual players to decide for themselves.

Here's an example... in PF, outside of the above, Fireball also sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area... it can even melt metals. Thus if a player wants to set an object on fire or melt metal with it he can and using it can also have unforseen consequences (this, IMO, is what flavor that actually ties into the gameworld does).

Taking Fireball in 4e... it only affects creatures in the burst... that's it by the rules and flavor.

Actually, that is not correct. There is a rule in the Rules Compendium (and previously) that specifically states that in such cases the DM is to make a judgement call - just like always. Unless there is a good in-game reason, or external pressures (i.e. lack of time or interest to deal with it), you won't find too many DMs that wouldn't say a power with the Fire keyword affects flammable objects.

I have quoted that particular passage before. In this thread.

 

[Balesir]

A man who can't cast any spells, throw lightning or heal people is a fighter.

I'll be sure to let the Dalai Llama know he's a "fighter".

Read post 282 by Balesir.
The rules say exactly that.

You are confusing the flavour/colour being "up to the players to decide" with the flavour/colour being "unimportant".

I get to decide what I wear every day; that doesn't mean that what I wear is unimportant, or that I would be just as well wearing nothing at all. I wear what makes me comfortable - but there are a myriad social and practical considerations that determine what that will be.

Just because the players (including the DM) get to decide what the in-game expression of the facts generated by the rules will be does not mean that the form of that expression is unimportant.

Quite the contrary - the form that the expression takes can be critical to our enjoyment of the game. All the more reason not to have it dictated to us by a rules system.

 

[D'karr]

Taking Fireball in 4e... it only affects creatures in the burst... that's it by the rules and flavor.

Does the power say that it WILL NOT affect any objects in the burst? No it doesn't. So the DM can decide what the power does outside of that narrow interpretation.

For example the DM can easily decide that he'd like to have the room catch on fire because there are combustibles in the area. The power has a keyword of Fire, after all. And the rules do provide some guidance on how to handle attacking objects with powers.

So in PF everything that the power does is explicitly spelled out in the power. In 4e, the decision is explicitly left up to the DM and players. A player can easily ask, "can I set fire to the room with the Fireball?" Then it becomes a matter of DM adjudication. The DMG also has wonderful advice for DMs when handling these "corner cases."

In my case, I know which one provides more flexibility, the one that puts the adjudication in the hands of the person that knows that table best, the DM.

 

[Derren]

The rules say the flavour is malleable, not that it is unimportant. It is you who are saying that because the fluff is not fixed that it is somehow less important.

Something that can be changed on a whim can't be important.
When I can change the colors or the motive in a painting at will, does it really matter what it shows?

When it doesn't matter if the bard insults someone to make his brain explode, shoots a laser beam out of his musical instrument or just simply throws a rock at the enemy then those things do not matter.
What always stays teh same and what really matters to the game is "Ranged 10, single target, CHA v WILL; on a hit, 1d6 + CHA mod -2 to hit rolls"

 

[Balesir]

You can change clothes on a whim - does that mean it doesn't matter if you wander around naked?

 

[Imaro]

What? There is a serious disconnect in what we mean, here, I think.

The rules are not the game. There is much more to the game than the rules. The rules procedures and effects are fixed, yes. What these effects mean in the game world are absolutely not fixed.

The power "Vicious Mockery" is a principle, a modus operandi in the skillset of the Bard. It's a bit like knowledge of fluid mechanics as it relates to streamlining for an engineer. Like the engineer, the Bard can use this technique in various ways to affect various entities to various ends. An engineer who tries to use fluid mechanics by rote is going to be a really poor engineer; you understand the principles, and apply them according to your best judgement to the situation before you. Same for the Bard. They have a set of principles for magically affecting emotions such that they distract and cause anguish/damage to target creatures. They don't do this the same way every time - and sometimes the way that they select does not create the desired effect (they "miss"). But when they successfully apply the technique, the game-mechanical effects on the environment are similar (as decided by the dice, representing unknown variables).

Okay, technically Bards in PHB 2 cast spells and thus Vicious Mockery is an actual spell. Spells, as far as I can tell, are a specific thing in 4e with a formula (which can be written in a spellbook, at least in the description of spells for the Wizard). I'm going to go ahead and say this is your interpretation of the rules for Bards... but not necessarily the default for the game, or even a correct one.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Something that can be changed on a whim can't be important.

That is your judgment and opinion, but not one I share, and not one explicitly supported by the game materials.

When I can change the colors or the motive in a painting at will, does it really matter what it shows?

I will suggest though that the flavour of a given power is less like creating a single static work of art and more like the ability to paint. Today you can decide you want to paint a portrait, tomorrow, maybe a landscape, and in a couple days, maybe you're feeling zany and will try something in an abstract style.

 

[Derren]

You can change clothes on a whim - does that mean it doesn't matter if you wander around naked?

When all clothes fit all occasions (Ranged 10, single target, CHA v WILL; on a hit, 1d6 + CHA mod -2 to hit rolls even against skelettons) yes, it doesn't matter.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

When all clothes fit all occasions (Ranged 10, single target, CHA v WILL; on a hit, 1d6 + CHA mod -2 to hit rolls even against skelettons) yes, it doesn't matter.

Yes, it still matters. Just not in this case.

Try that on an ooze, see how far it gets you.

Hit a fire-immune creature with a fire attack.

Or conversely, use a radiant power against that same skeleton and tell me it doesn't matter.

 

[Derren]

Yes, it still matters. Just not in this case.

Try that on an ooze, see how far it gets you.

Hit a fire-immune creature with a fire attack.

Or conversely, use a radiant power against that same skeleton and tell me it doesn't matter.

Yes, those things are some of the few cases where the rules support some sort of flavor in 4E, but they are far less than in previous editions. And exactly this "less" is the problem. And there are a lot of situations in 4E where the minimal union between rules and flavor is not there even though its needed.
Also still, the flavor of the abilities do not matter. Its the power tag. it doesn't matter if I hit the ooze with a spit from a paladin or shoot lazers out of a holy symbol. Both has the exact same result.