Less flexible ability rolls.

[Dandu]

Maybe you should also make the alchemical healing serums addictive

The thought does cross my mind, though; what about ability damage, level drain, curses, and a lot of other negative conditions a cleric's healing magic typically takes care of that will be absent? I guess you could just tell the PCs to suck it up and rest for a while like with the broken bone example above, but that doesn't feel very fun. Also reminds me of Warhammer Fantasy RP.

 

[Aluvial]

Maybe you should also make the alchemical healing serums addictive

The thought does cross my mind, though; what about ability damage, level drain, curses, and a lot of other negative conditions a cleric's healing magic typically takes care of that will be absent?

I think that is the beauty of this type of game. Normal resting is now the norm. So, curses when they happen, would be VERY rare. Monsters might be around, but not in immense numbers. The ones that are out there are definitely nasty. I don't see this game going very far, much like 1st edition where anything over level 10 was a dream. Most adventurers would be happy to retire at 5th level with that small hoard they just found. 531 gp!!! Heck yeah, I lived long enough to buy a very small farm. Hopefully, some big monster won't eat all of my sheep. Hopefully, I'll live long enough to procreate, and I don't mean all of those bastards I left behind in those seedy port towns.

In a game like this, I would see that your biggest, worst fear ever, would be getting a disease. I would definitely adopt some of the PF or 4E rules on disease progression. I think the best part of a game like this is that success means more to the player. If you don't die, you really have made a name for yourself. That is the type of character that you soon won't forget. This is the type of game that will be out of the ordinary.

Dandu, what other problems can you foresee with this type of game? I'm curious to know myself. I'll start a new thread if the OP wants me to do that....

Aluvial

 

[Dandu]

Your adventuring career can be ended by a drunken late night encounter with a harlot who has the Burning Crusade.

That is the type of character that you soon won't forget. This is the type of game that will be out of the ordinary.

Let's keep in mind that this, like change, is not inherently good or bad. You can certainly be memorable and extraordinary for the wrong reasons. Like Hitler.

 

[Aluvial]

And then I scroll down to the bottom of the page and see the advertisement for this...

Sword Noir - Sword's Edge Publishing | RPGNow.com

Aluvial

 

[Tharkon]

Roll up a few ability point arrays. And then have them roll off for the arrays.

This would prevent them being to far apart, and to some extend even guides them into a good party composition if I make sure that each array has a different highest score. Although it's not in the near future by far, I foresee a party greater than 4, it's usually that way amongst my friends.

I would definitely find a 0 level variant for this type of game.

Dungeon Master's Guide 3.0 lists level-0 classes for people that want to multi-class at first level.

Elves and half-elves get 1d3, halflings and gnomes get 1d2, dwarves and humans get 1d4, and half-orcs and the like get 1d5.

Would one level of humanoid work? Although that might be weird if they become a class with a d6 as hitdie (both d4 classes are banned).

I like the feel of ordinary heroes. Definitely kill a few of them early. Heck, I would have a wagon roll over one of them at 0-level as they try to rush across town with a message to their master. This type of death will make the world seem tough and that will make success even more worth it when it finally comes!

Hmmm, killing them at this 0-level might actually be better than after they got their first level, since then it could seem harsh to that one player that obviously was used as an example (although justified if one players ends up being annoying or troublesome perhaps). And it still shows them that death isn't just possible, but in fact probable for an adventurer.

Maybe you should also make the alchemical healing serums addictive

I was just looking at the drugs section of the Book of Vile Evil, and this is probably something I'm gonna incorporate, although it should not be to common, otherwise the players on one side will ignore this healing magic, making the work designing it useless, and on the other side there will be a lot of junkies all over the place.

The thought does cross my mind, though; what about ability damage, level drain, curses, and a lot of other negative conditions a cleric's healing magic typically takes care of that will be absent? I guess you could just tell the PCs to suck it up and rest for a while like with the broken bone example above, but that doesn't feel very fun. Also reminds me of Warhammer Fantasy RP.

They could travel to a church or temple and hope that one of the priests that is high enough level to perform a ritual to cure them, but yes, if it happens mid-dungeon they will might end up dragging their allies along for a long time with clothes covering their mouth to protect them from the contagious disease. A broken bone might be a reason for other characters to research something (maybe not magic, but they could learn a language). Train, or partake in some festival. Or they could hire a wagon for the character to sit in, maybe they'll invent a wheelchair.
By comparison, it takes a level 16 priest to cast raise dead. And priests having nor armor, almost no weapons, and no combat magic, don't really gain experience fast, so finding a level 16 priest might be a quest on it's own, and at this time the fact I worked out the class all the way to 20 is for pure aesthetic purposes. There will probably be a few priests in big cities that are able to cure curses or disease at a price. The priest might also simply refuse service unless they prove themselves faithful to his religion, another hook for a quest.

Dandu, what other problems can you foresee with this type of game? I'm curious to know myself. I'll start a new thread if the OP wants me to do that....

Feel free to stay here, I might pick up some ideas from it.

Am I ranting on and on? Hmmm, maybe somebody will read this...

I have read it.

Since I am pretty confident my players are not gonna read this thread I can explain a bit more about the magicality (is that a word) of this word. It is sort of post-apocalyptic, in the sense that it all exists, but most mortals have to re-discover it. A lot of portals to other planes are destroyed, and the planes drifted apart, making extraplanar creatures less common. Those that do end up on the Material Plane are not likely to expose themselves, and the players might be one of the few that do end up discovering them. The main way in which magic is presented is a type of crystal that is discovered which seems to be in tune with the so called "magical energies" which they discovered can enhance a weapon when it is crafted in a specific way to harness these energies. The players will later discover the dead portals to other planes where there are artifacts which they may or may not be able to bring with them. But when these crystals are exposed to the artifacts they will absorb some of these properties eventually allowing for flaming weapons, etc. Not every race is as advanced in the discovery of magic as well, and they are reluctant to share information with each other. So even though the players can start as elves and not know much of magic. There might be another group of elves that has made some more progress in their research.

 

[Jhaelen]

Also I'd like to point out that in this particular campaign the classical 4 iconic characters rule probably doesn't go up anyway since I will be removing the following PHB classes: Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard.
Most of these classes will be replaced by NPC classes I am currently designing: Performer, Priest and Scholar I've come up with so far. But I don't expect any player to want to play these as they will be equal to if not weaker to the Adept class, which is also removed.

All right. In light of these sweeping changes to available character classes, I don't think not being able to choose race or ability scores will matter.

Maybe I missed it: What are your players thinking about your ideas?

Since you want to emphasize martial characters and seem to be determined to use the D&D ruleset, maybe you should have a look at Iron Heroes. It could save you a lot of work and make sure game balance is still pretty much unchanged besides the rarity of magic.

Anyway, good luck with your campaign!

 

[Tharkon]

All right. In light of these sweeping changes to available character classes, I don't think not being able to choose race or ability scores will matter.

I was slightly worried that being stuck with high mental abilities wouldn't be useful enough anymore, especially Charisma, since the addition of the Swashbuckler and Ninja lessen the blow on Int and Wis, but if you can't fix a high Cha with the switch you might be forced to play Paladin.

Maybe I missed it: What are your players thinking about your ideas?

I have not presented it yet. In fact I have not announced that I am working on a campaign at all, as I don't expect to launch it anytime soon. The intended players are mostly the same ones that I am currently playing with in another campaign. Once I get a good idea of what I want and what works best I will present it. I also wanted an objective perspective which is why I asked here first.

Since you want to emphasize martial characters and seem to be determined to use the D&D ruleset, maybe you should have a look at Iron Heroes. It could save you a lot of work and make sure game balance is still pretty much unchanged besides the rarity of magic.

The idea behind Iron Heroes sounds like it could work for my campaign at first, but I might want to slowly increase the availability of magic in later stadia of the campaign, I'd have to see if I can find the books to see how different Iron Heroes is from D&D and to what extend material is interchangeable. For example, from what I read on the wiki-article, Iron Heroes does not have different races.

I made a few test rolls, and I think the biggest problem I see is not even the fact they're set to particular scores, but the differences possible. Even though this is just as likely to happen under the standard rules.

Take for example these two scores I rolled:
Str 18, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 10 (+11 mod/42 pts)
Str 10, Dex 11, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 7, Cha 10 (+1 mod/18 pts)

Unless one of the two switches some scores, the first character is better than the second in every ability.

In this set I also rolled:
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 9, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 15 (+8 mod/35 pts)
Str 14, Dex 15, Con 6, Int 17, Wis 12, Cha 18 (+10 mod/42 pts)

That second character isn't gonna be really useful if these were the 4 members of the party, so I need to think of a way to lessen the differences between rolls, maybe roll a d6 for each ability and add 9 to the score, re-rolling anything you already have until you rolled all 6 possible results. Basically this gives a standard array of 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 (+6 mod/28 pts) but randomized.

Trivia: However unlikely, it is possible for two players, both using standard ability score rolling rules, to come up with scores worth 12 pts (+0 total mod) and 84 pts (+24 total mod), 12 pts being even less than the default scores given to creatures in the MM, which have 15 pts.

 

[Tharkon]

I should probably change the thread title by now, if that's possible, but here's what I came up with to solve the healing availability.

Potions/oils can be made with the alchemy spell. Not sure which potions I am going to allow, but as a general rule nothing with a range other than touch. I'd have to re-evaluate the spells with a range of personal though, even if they are normally not fit for potions, but something like darkness just would not fit an alchemical potion even though it has a range of touch.
However there are the following restrictions on the skill:
Potions require a minimum rank of 5 times the spell level, and level 0 potions require 1 rank. The DCs are 15, 20, 25 and 30 respectively, so basically anyone with the minimum rank, an Intelligence of 15 and Skill Focus (Craft (Alchemy)) can take 10 on it.
Potions require half the base price in raw material, instead of 1/3th.
Furthermore all "magical" potions are addicting. Level 0 potions have a low addiction rate, level 1 medium, level 2 high and level 3 potions are extremely addicting. Not sure if I should add side-affects or overdose-effects.

I am worried a little that alchemist might make more profit with this than other specialists, but maybe the addicting nature of the potions could make them hard to sell and thus reduce it.