Less magical item dependance; an Idea - Testing the waters

[Apok]

Probably one of the biggest things about D&D in general that I don't care for is the overabundance of magical items. Let's face it, in your typical D&D campaign, magic items are fairly common. The game designers have even gone so far as to require a certian GP-value of magic items to be possessed by the PC's in order for them to remain competative against equivalent challenges. Because of this, magical items have lost alot of their mystique and "coolness factor." Sure, having a +4 Keen Rapier of Speed is pretty damn neat, but it's so formulaic. The fighter next door could just as easily comission such a weapon to be made by the local mage's guild. It's gotten tot he point where adventuring and acquiring magical treasures is a Diablo-esqe venture in finding new ways to combine the various pool of weapon powers to make the Ultimate BMF Weapon of Butt-Kicking.

Call me crazy, but this set-up just doesn't appeal to me. I love the idea of magic weapons and items, don't get me wrong, but I think that they should all be unique, named with a rich history. They should also be powerful, perhaps with some drawbacks attatched to them. Yes, I basically feel that all magical items should be given the same treatment as D&D Artifacts; powerful and one-of-a-kind. Another reason why the current system doesn't float my boat can be answered in one simple question; what do PC's fear losing more, their life or their stuff? I think we all know the answer to that one, don't we?

Take away a character's magical toys, and he is suddenly the lesser for it. He can no longer battle dragons or take on armies with confidence because all of his power is tied to his stuff rather than to him. This is less true for spellcasters, but even they enjoy a pretty big boost from their various magical gewjaws. I would really like to see D&D where a character's power was less dependant on magical items and more dependant upon his own abilities. If you think this is a load of bollocks and I'm just talking out of my arse, here's a quick test; compare two medium to high level characters of the same class, one with the standard compliment of magical gear and one without, and see just how well they would fare against the same challenges. How would they fare against each other, for that matter?

So, to get to my point, I am thinking of devising a system that would eliminate the need for characters owning tons of magical gear just to keep up. It would be similiar to FFG's Path series which had schools where you could spend XP to gain the abilities of the school. In short, I would create a number of Gifts, if you will, that would allow the characters to do extraordinary things as though they had the cool gear (though I would make them far more interesting than that) but that would be a part of them. You spend the XP, you get a Gift of Power that lets you do Something Cool. Think of them like Feats, but really powerful ones that cost XP.

I admit I'm sort-of stealing the idea of Charms from the game Exalted, but the concept is the same; minor powers that let the character do cool stuff without the need for magical enhancement. This would let the characters become legendary instead of their equipment. Would anyone be at all interested in seeing or using a system like this? If I get enough positive feedback, I'll post my ideas in the House Rules forum.

 

[Piratecat]

Absolutely.

Ashy co-designed something like this for Oathbound, I think; it was published in Dragon a few months back. Prestige races let a person spend XP to gain spell-like abilities and defenses, changing their physical form in the process. It's a cool concept.

 

[howandwhy99]

This is a great idea. I would go so far as to buy a product that offered such a system.


I do have one suggestion:
One of my pet peeves is the balancing of PC's when they have used XP to 'buy off' a number of powers using one of the XP Paths. The trouble comes in when you look at two equally leveled characters, but one has spent 10's of 1000's of experience on non-leveling powers. Both may be 8th level, but the one may be closer to 12th or 13th because of all the XP spent. I think Savage Species follows this guideline. Instead of 'buying off' a set level of XP when you - say - get bitten by a werewolf and gain the template, the PC must spend his next few levels on the race.

SO, I would suggest not using an XP-based system. Instead try balancing characters with the listed GP values from the DMG instead. It seems to me, that you are replacing magic items with special powers in order to give PC's cool abilities and retain the rarity of powerful items. It may sound simplistic, but in the system rules aren't these essentially the same thing? Magic item give magical abilities that normally don't fall in to race or class abilities. By using the Magic Item Creation rules for each power you maintain the standard game balance and allow for just about any power you like. How you confer those powers in game is up to you.

One drawback I can see is the doubling cost of 'nonremovable' magic items. Depending on how your world works, though, maybe they can be removed or stolen. Maybe the drawbacks you suggested for magic weapons could be used to reduce the price of (magic-itemized) powers? Cursed items seem to get price reduction somehow. Hopefully, questons like this will be answered in the new revised books.

The other potential problem is one central to D20; GP value in terms of PC power. Personally, it would be nice to be able to have the PC's keep a running total of 'net worth' on the sheet like the overall skill point total. Bought power costs could be listed just like equipment. One potential pitfall with this, unfortunately, is players comparing 'net worth' to see who's PC is getting a bigger peice of the pie.

Anyways, please keep working on this. I think it could really change our style of play.

 

[Michael Tree]

I like it, but then I wrote up a very similar idea on another board a little while ago, so I'm a bit biased about the idea. You're absolutely right that just dropping magic items creates all sorts of balance problems, and they are neccessary for the CR system to work.

I would recommend using both gold and XP to balance Gifts, or at least use the GP/level chart in the DMG to determine the amount of gifts a particular character can have.

Also encourage your players to be creative in determining what gifts represent. They could be anything from magical tattoos, permanent potions, bloodline powers from legendary ancestors, divinely granted gifts, natural talents, supernatural training and techniques (akin to movie martial arts secret maneuvers), the divine rights of kings and nother nobles, the result of fulfilling a prophecy, and so on.

I don't think there is a need to double the costs of the gifts. In the sort of setting you're describing, physical magic items are all intimately tied to the characters who wields them. An item is a part of the character as much as Excalubur is part of King Arthur, the winged sandals are a part of Mercury, and the magic ring is a part of Aladdin. They're never destroyed or lost except for plot reasons, and gifts can be lost for plot reasons too.

 

[Tonguez]

Great idea. I already do something similar IMC (set in Mythic Polynesia). Anyway because in this setting many standard DnD items don't exist anyone acquring the magic item instead 'manifests' a 'Gift of the Ancestors'.

I also use a system whereby a PC must have enough 'Mana' before they can weild a particlar magic weapon (most of whom are divine)- for anyone of lesser Mana the item either doesn't function or becomes cursed (the item takes offense at the PCs presumption and takes revenge)

 

[Trainz]

I REALLY like this concept.

If someone puts such a system together, BY ALL MEANS, e-mail me. I would be very tempted to give it a shot IMC.

 

[jester47]

Yeah, you could call it transhuman: the pointlessness.

As good ideas go I think this ranks right up there with FATAL and Synnibar.

There are some fallacies in the argument for this idea. The first is that there is a certain value of magic items that the characters must possess to be able to go up against monsters of similiar challenge level. In some cases this is true, but in most cases, the monster bleeds, shatters, dies, or whatever when steel and magic from spells hit it.

Please explain to me how a +4 keen rapier of speed is formulaic? By definintion of the magic items section this thing is a very very special weapon, and if someone could go "get one forged" the problem is not the rules but rather the DM. Anythying over +5 is supposed to be treated like an artifact.

Part of the balancing of magic items is that they can be taken away, destroyed, lost, and forgotten. A Mega Feat cannot. So such a thing, to be balanced would have to retard your level progression.

Also, it disrupts the very idea of level progression. Why not just make the power a part of a prestige class and move it up a notch to a more appropriate slot and say "at x level character gets x mega feat."? What is the difference between having the option to pay 5000xp to aquire the Mega Feat "Squash Enemy Like a Bug" at 4th level and just getting it a 5th?

Thats the point of the magic item. They are there (in stories and myth and legend) to beg the question "Is it the hero or is it his machine?" You will notice when a hero in a story uses a machine (or device or weapon) to achieve his goal the item that allowed him that achievement is ussually eventually separated from him, or takes a big step into the background. This is done to preserve the hero as a hero. If the hero is not removed from the device, then he becomes a villan, for the hero is a slave to the tool and by definition that is not a hero. He is no longer "ex pyrosis." We see this with Gollum, Aragorn, Sauron, Elric, Beowulf, Ulysses, and Plato's Gyges.

This idea combines the hero with his tool and smacks of the transhuman philosophy: That it is better to be one with the tool than to maintain the ability to separate from it. The magic item should not be seen as an enhancement to the character. It never was, never is and should never be.

The idea that certain enemies can only be defeated by certain powers of magic weapon is a trait of the quest. The characters find out that thier foe is unbeatable except by one kind of weapon and then quest to find that weapon.

I think what we all need to do is to reevaluate how items are used in our games pretty regularly. Ask youself these questions:

Do magic items ever leave the possession of the characters?
Do magic Items ever leave the character's possession against the character's will?
Has a magic item ever been destroyed in your game?
Do the players speak of magic items like tools for a job rather than feats or abilities?
Are potions, charged items and scrolls used often by your group?
Can the players often beat tough challenges without magic items?

If you answer no to most of these, then I would say you have a problem with magic item use in your group.

Now, dont get me wrong, the idea that Apok has come up with does have merit. Paying xp for abilities, whenit does not corrupt the advancement system is a cool idea. I would say that if you were to use this system, scrap the levels, cause that is the only way it makes sense, at least to me.

What I think is a bad idea is dropping magic items in favor of this system. It essentially trying to fix the problem betweeen the wheel and the seat by looking at the motor.

 

[Michael Tree]

There are some fallacies in the argument for this idea. The first is that there is a certain value of magic items that the characters must possess to be able to go up against monsters of similiar challenge level. In some cases this is true, but in most cases, the monster bleeds, shatters, dies, or whatever when steel and magic from spells hit it.

You don't need certain magic items to go against monsters of a similar challenge level, but without them those monsters will be a bigger challenge. To 10th level characters with magic items a CR 10 monster isn't much of a challenge. To the same character without magic items the same monster is a much bigger challenge, maybe CR 11 or 12. 10th level characters with magic items can defeat a CR 14 monster if they use good tactics and have some luck, but without magic items it would be a slaughter.

The character classes are also balanced assuming a certain amount of magical items. At mid to high levels, if magic items are rare, then spellcasters increasingly dominate the game.

Also, it disrupts the very idea of level progression. Why not just make the power a part of a prestige class and move it up a notch to a more appropriate slot and say "at x level character gets x mega feat."? What is the difference between having the option to pay 5000xp to aquire the Mega Feat "Squash Enemy Like a Bug" at 4th level and just getting it a 5th?

The advantage of treating it as a magic item is that it's a lot less arbitrary, since the game already has solid guidelines on the amount of extra power characters should have. It also allows the use of both gifts and magic items to be balanced with each other.

I'm not familar with "transhuman philosophy", but I know a lot about mythology and folklore. I can't think of a single folkstory or myth about a character that carries a dozen different magical devices on him, using them like tools. In most stories, characters either have one or two items that serves a single purpose - one-shot items essentially - or they have items that are integral parts of their character. Hence the desire for a D&D game in which each character has at most one or two magic items, without seriously skewing game balance.

Tell me, in D&D how would you create a character like Achilles, who is (in D&D terms) extremely difficult to injure due to an early supernatural occurrence? Simply building him with feats and classes isn't sufficient, as any character could be built in that way, and achilles' gift is unique. You could give him some homegrown "uber-feat" but that skews balance seriously and arbitrarily. Giving him the ability as a innate gift, a "virtual magic item", models the ability extremely well.

The same is also true for the numerous characters in Irish and Scots folktales about characters who have single unique abilities - to talk to animals, turn into birds, leap extremly high into the air, etc. - while still essentially being Fighters, Rangers, and Barbarians in D&D class terms.

 

[Jeph]

One word: 4CTF.

Okay, so it's really four words . . . so sue me. It's a great way of making things more character-oriented, instead of object-oriented, while maintaining the same power level. Just outlaw the Gadget option, and bingo!

Of course, it's also totally broken, but as an avid lover of Feng Shui, who am I to complain about such tribial matters?

 

[d20Dwarf]

Midnight has a lot of similar concepts, and introduces new ways to compensate for characters having less access to magic. We call it a rare magic world, and it captures the feel you're going for quite well, if I do say so myself.