D&D General Lethality, AD&D, and 5e: Looking Back at the Deadliest Edition

[MichaelSomething]

People can't forget something they never learned.

How is that different from any other edition? It's not like people suddenly forgot how to cooperate.

 

[Oofta]

People can't forget something they never learned.

You're assuming different behavior with no reason. If coordination was an issue in the past, it's an issue now.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Somewhere around here I posted the magic items from Keep on the borderlands. I don't know what drugs where involved with the idea that Gygax and company advocated a low magic game but just perusing a few of those old module's will end that silly thought with any functioning brain.

I've commented before that the treasure tables in OD&D did not seem to support the idea that low-magic-items was the default. It didn't take getting to high levels before you have more +1 swords than you knew what to do with.

 

[Older Beholder]

Playing 2nd ed in the 90's seemed more deadly when I played it, mostly due to the people running the game being someones bully older brother that would plan TPK's rather than adventures. Nothing to do with the rules or the game, just the people I played with. I avoid any game these days where the DM touts deadliness as the main selling point.

 

[jmartkdr2]

I've commented before that the treasure tables in OD&D did not seem to support the idea that low-magic-items was the default. It didn't take getting to high levels before you have more +1 swords than you knew what to do with.

I remember conversations about what to do with all of them. Caddies, buckets, and entire platoons of peasants with +1 swords were discussed.

 

[Mannahnin]

That's actually pretty funny, because the wight's monster category is "enchanted", even though it shouldn't count as enchanted due to being vulnerable to silver. Lycanthropes are also listed as enchanted creatures, even though the spell description specifically mentions a werewolf as an example of a non-enchanted creature.

Yeah, that seems like a substantial editing error. Another little thing weighing against me finally picking up the RC.

It's because the definition of enchanted has been mangled in 3 or 4 different directions since 1e. Enchanted used to mean someone actually cast magic to create the creature or that they were inherently magical like fey, or dryads. But every version and every new set of developers creates on what they want it to mean instead of allowing any sort of continuity.

I always found it relatively clear. In AD&D extraplanar and summoned creatures can't physically touch you, but you get an AC and save bonus against anything Evil. In Basic D&D magically-created creatures also can't touch you (living statues and similar constructs).

It wasn't until 3rd ed that the description really attempted to eliminate ANY ambiguity, of course. As usual.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I remember conversations about what to do with all of them. Caddies, buckets, and entire platoons of peasants with +1 swords were discussed.

DM: Okay, you found another +1 longsword when you searched the remains of the bandits you killed

Jesse "Rules Lawyer" Pinkman: Huh. Another +1 longsword. checks notes. So we've found five +1 longswords so far?

DM: Uh, yeah, I guess so.

Jesse Pinkman: Great! We melt them all down and forge a +5 longsword.

DM: ...... uh ...... um ..... you can't do that?

Jesse Pinkman: Sure we can. It doesn't matter what order we put the swords in the forge, we still get a +5 sword. Associative property of addition.

DM: um .... you're ... um... wait .... you're adding the pluses?

Jesse Pinkman: Yeah! Math bi***!

 

[Oofta]

DM: Okay, you found another +1 longsword when you searched the remains of the bandits you killed

Jesse "Rules Lawyer" Pinkman: Huh. Another +1 longsword. checks notes. So we've found five +1 longswords so far?

DM: Uh, yeah, I guess so.

Jesse Pinkman: Great! We melt them all down and forge a +5 longsword.

DM: ...... uh ...... um ..... you can't do that?

Jesse Pinkman: Sure we can. It doesn't matter what order we put the swords in the forge, we still get a +5 sword. Associative property of addition.

DM: um .... you're ... um... wait .... you're adding the pluses?

Jesse Pinkman: Yeah! Math bi***!

Wish I had thought of that. Back in Living City (public game) we had to split up treasure at the end of the session. After a while my fighter had a cartload of +1 weapons. Need a polearm? Halberd, Glaive, Guisarme, Ranseur or Fauchard? Swords? Falchion, Shortsword, Cutlass, Saber, Katana? Those are all the ones on top of the pile. I'm sure there's a half dozen others in there somewhere. We've got you covered.

What? A magical item that's not a weapon? Sorry, I'm a fighter I just get all of the weapons. On the other hand we've got a bucket of flails somewhere... Hey! Where are to going? I haven't even gotten around to the dagger and knife list!

 

[Velderan]

But a very good point was made upthread. The adnd character was expected to have buckets of magic items. That’s where the lethality shifts. Again, module play resulted in buckets of magic items. That 4th level fighter had +1 plate and +1 shield. And a magic weapon. And probably half a dozen consumables.

The amount of magical items that were typically given out in an AD&D published adventure was definitely more than you'll see in a typical 5e adventure, at least from my experience. The thing is AD&D placed more of an emphasis on those items for increasing a player's power. 5e puts a lot of focus on the build for determining your power level and magic items are often not really needed to be effective in combat.

That can be either good or bad, depending on your preferences.

 

[Velderan]

Wish I had thought of that. Back in Living City (public game) we had to split up treasure at the end of the session. After a while my fighter had a cartload of +1 weapons. Need a polearm? Halberd, Glaive, Guisarme, Ranseur or Fauchard? Swords? Falchion, Shortsword, Cutlass, Saber, Katana? Those are all the ones on top of the pile. I'm sure there's a half dozen others in there somewhere. We've got you covered.

What? A magical item that's not a weapon? Sorry, I'm a fighter I just get all of the weapons. On the other hand we've got a bucket of flails somewhere... Hey! Where are to going? I haven't even gotten around to the dagger and knife list!

We used to store some of the extra +1 weapons and armor in whatever we were using for a base of operations so if a character died, we had extra stuff to hand over to the replacement PC to help get them started. At some point, it became a pretty good arsenal to choose from!