Let's ban Teleport!

Thanee said:
One correction: not fast-travel... instant-travel!

Bye
Thanee

Really? :) Wind Walk isn't instant by my understanding of the term. Neither is Transport Via Plants: unless you are staying within an area that has the same kind of vegetation you'll have to hop from area to area in stages. Yet both are mentioned in your first post as spells to be banned.

Did I miss a shift of the discussion away from fast-travel to instant-travel only? If so, sorry about the confusion - I can easily see how a high-level game can work just fine without _instant_ travel, as long as other fast-travel magic remains available.
 

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Well, Wind Walk is a bit of a special case there...
Note, that Shadow Walk, which is kinda similar, is not up there. I guess it has something to do with Wind Walk being a divine spell. :)

Transport via Plants is pretty instant, tho.

My initial proposition was to ban Teleport (and similar magic) only, Wind Walk and Transport via Plants were suggested on this thread, and I agree, that they seem to fit into the same category (and no, that still does not include giant eagles, wagons, magic carpets and "ordinary" fly spells - not even Shadow Walk).

Bye
Thanee
 
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My group decided (quite wisely, concerning the circumstances) to wind walk through a large section of the underdark. They couldn't have done it under 3.5 rules because of the poor maneuverability at 60 mph, but it was fine under 3e. I skipped some encounters as a result -- but I had as much fun describing cool locations that they just breezed by, without having to actually detail the encounter. I had been caught off guard at first, but in retrospect I'm quite glad that they used the spell.
 

And there I thought I had said it often enough by now, that these thoughts are - of course - not for every campaign (EDIT: not even every campaign I play or DM!). Yours quite obviously isn't one that would have atmospheric or other problems with spells of that kind. :)

Bye
Thanee
 
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Oh, sure. Please don't misunderstand -- I'm certainly not saying that people who use these spells are "wrong." Far from it. I'm just saying that my campaign works really well with them in it, which is quite a different thing.

Thanee, have you considered dream travel? There's a psionic ability that lets you walk through other peoples' dreams en route to your destination. I think that's pretty darn cool.
 
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Well, no, but we don't use psionics (obviously ;)), so that's just natural. Altho, I agree, that the ability surely sounds cool. Somewhat similar to Shadow Walk, I suppose. :)

Bye
Thanee
 

Talon5 said:
Mr Wizard gathers all the money together, Teleports out, buys all the scrolls and wands he can. One of the scrolls is Teleport w/o Error. Bang he's back, the wand of CSW is exhausted healing up the characters, he reads the scroll of Fly.

Without the trip to town the characters would have to use the climbing skills or their jump, maybe they could come up with another plan, something that involved some construction materials and brain power. A thousand situations come to mind, TP makes it easy and very simple.
I'm going to have to disagree with you, here. I've run dungeon crawls with 15th, 18th, 20th level and beyond. The first thing you have to reconcile is that such powerful characters have lots of equipment and plenty of options, many of which have no bearing on teleportation. Slippers of Spider Climb are only 4,900 gp and boots of levitation only 7500 gp. You can bet your bottom gold piece that a high level rogue may not be wearing them all the time, but she's got them in her haversack. Heck, the 1st level spell, Jump, can give a +30 bonus by the time the caster reaches 9th level. Is it an inherently better choice than denying a teleport spell to get an item? Monks have super movement without any items. Every adventurer I've ever played with has always carried a few 'ace in the hole' items against emergencies. The presence of magic is going to make any solution possible, and relatively easy. The question becomes one of opportunity cost, an issue often forgotten.

Let's run further with your example, for a moment. Mr. Wizard teleports back to town. Now, let's assume that there's only one magic shop, say at the guild, so he doesn't have to travel about town. That doesn't happen in my world, but let's say that it does. We'll also assume he's heading to a metropolis, with at least 50,000 people, so that there would be at least a potential of 30-40 people who might even have the ability to make the item he wants. More likely, the number is closer to 10 such individuals. The chance that such an indivdual is ready and just sitting about, waiting to sell some items is unlikely. Remember, we're talking about a 13th level caster, minimum, to create the scroll. Perhaps the PC is going to a broker. Not unlikely. Book value on that scroll of Greater Teleport is 2275 gp...but a shrewd businessman will note the PC's urgency, not to mention the demand for that particular item, and the PC may end up spending a good deal more. Beggars can't be choosers, and if the PC needs that spell NOW, he's paying more for it. We're also being awfully nice in our example, by assuming that he can get a powerful divine item and powerful arcane item at the same shop. Either way, this is going to cost time, as well as money. There's no instaneous "McDonald's Adventurer Meal". Such items aren't just sitting under a glass case, waiting to be bought. They're locked and secured in vaults.

But let's assume he can and does get the items he needs. He's just used a 5th level slot, and then bought and burned a 2275 item, for the privelege of buying a 525 gp wand (and quite frankly, I'd be suprised if the party didn't already have superior equipment and spells than that) and a bunch of 325 gp scrolls for flight. NOTE: High-level PCs either have lots of cash, or lots of powerful items...sometimes both. Remember that the PCs are in an arms race, of sorts, with the BBEG and his forces. Fighting powerful outsiders? You'd better be prepared.

So, Mr. Wizard has burned a 5th level slot, consumed a bunch of magic items and defeated....a pit trap, essentially. I'm not seeing the problem, really. Theoretically, they still have five hours to rescue a hostage, but they've used some of their abilities and resources to beat a challenge. Which is how the system is meant to work, by design. Now, you may not prefer that playstyle, but understand that to change it as radically as I sometimes see suggested, you need to make much more sweeping changes than simply remove the instant and even fast-transit spells.

The example you gave is easily defeated by a quick combination of 1st to 3rd level spells. Hardly something a high-level party worries about. You might rightly say "But they didn't memorize those spells that day", and you'd be right...but they probably did memorize "Limited Wish, Wish, or Summon Monster, Planar Ally, Miracle and Gate"...most of which allow them the flexibily to not bother.

To return to the example above: the party is completely tapped of spells, except for one teleport spell? I suppose that possible, but unlikely. Most parties will jealously guard the non-renewable resources like spells until as such time as they either need them more than ever, or that there's no other choice but to use them. If the party's 'casters are on empty, then their final showdown and rescue is going to be pretty unsatisfying for the party members so afflicted...unless of course, they have items to use during the battle, again returning us to opportunity cost.

I think part of the question becomes who are the players battling at higher levels? The core assumption appears to be "powerful wizards", be they liches, corrupt humans or something more nefarious. Powerful extraplanar forces are often missed. When your enemies can swoop down on you from off-plane and can both teleport and plane-shift at will, you tend to be more cautious. My experience has been that players who know that they're always in peril tend to save the last spell for an escape. The wizard who doesn't jealously guard his emergency spells doesn't get too far...incautious wizards don't live long lives. Things like contingency make things even more complex. IMC, the casters always keep transit spells prepped, because they know a call for help from across the world may come at any moment. A 23rd-level cleric is the living will of his god embodied in physical form: his church can and will call upon him to act on their behalf. A 23rd level paladin is ready to act without hesitation at his deity's insistence, or even just the need of the people.

High-level D&D is about tough choices: do I use that Teleport now? Will I need it later? Is this worth spending my sacrifice on, or using my last Fly spell? Will I need this scroll, potion, or wand later? Do I have enough hit points, or should I heal? Should I activate a death ward now, or wait ten minutes? Should I use my +5 sword, or get out the anarchic +3 keen one, instead? In a game with insta-death saves, a single round can be the difference between life and death. Opportunity cost matters.

Now, if as a player or DM, you feel that such spells are taking fun out of the game, you should remove them. But if the intention is to force the players to engage in an activity purely for the sake of forcing it on them, it's not much fun for all around. Tolkien, for example, is a poor example for lots of things, because D&D makes tons of assumptions about it's core world that simply are demonstratively false in Tolkien's world. D&D is an amalgamation of lots of different worlds, mixed and melted together into its own design...a design of which teleport is an assumed part.
 

WizarDru said:
Now, if as a player or DM, you feel that such spells are taking fun out of the game, you should remove them. But if the intention is to force the players to engage in an activity purely for the sake of forcing it on them, it's not much fun for all around.
Just to add a quick note: The latter is totally not what I am looking to do. :)

Bye
Thanee
 

Thanee said:
Just to add a quick note: The latter is totally not what I am looking to do. :)
Oh, I know. You explained that above, and I didn't miss it. I'm sorry if it seemd I was implying that...I didn't mean to. That was for the people watching at home. :) I have seen a lot of folks put forth on the evil of said spells, and it wasn't "I don't like the way I have to accomadate the impact of these spells on my game world", but instead "it's much harder to railroad my PCs onto the plot I want them to follow if they have these spells".

Dru's first rule of high-level D&D: Let Go. ;)
 
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Pinotage said:
Maybe I'm just dense or it's the type of game I run and play in, but this has never been a problem for me. Scry and Teleport - yeah, right! You need to know who the BBEG is first, and even then, if you jumped the rest of the adventure and teleported in, he'd beat you to a pulp. Problem solved.

Why would he beat you to a pulp? Your party is fully buffed and unwounded. You have all your spells and resources available. You have the advantage of surprise. I fail to see how the BBEG could beat you at full strength, when you can beat him after you've worked your way through several previous encounters, using up hp/spells/magic items, etc.

I find that with teleport, battles become hit-and-run raids. Party A teleports in and nukes the BBEG. If the BBEG survives the initial nuking, he teleports out and recovers. Then the BBEG Scry-Teleports-Nukes the PCs who teleport out. Rinse, repeat, until one side does enough damage early to wipe out the other.

The problem is not just Scry-Teleport, but also the extreme amounts of damage you can dish out in a single round (at higher levels), and the serious advantage that first strike gives you.

Personally, I think Teleport would be fine if Scry didn't allow you to teleport to the location.
 

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