Let's make a mass combat system!

[Magistus71]

You may also want to check out the Mass Combat Rules posted on the Farland Campaign Site, they even made a Windows program to help with mass Combat.

http://www.farlandcampaign.homestead.com/battle.html

 

[JimAde]

Yep, I saw those. They're good but a little too abstract for my taste. I'd like it just one step closer to regular combat. Instead of just getting a bonus for having siege engines, I want to roll for the siege engines to hit. Things like that.


Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Magistus71]

Yep, I saw those. They're good but a little too abstract for my taste. I'd like it just one step closer to regular combat. Instead of just getting a bonus for having siege engines, I want to roll for the siege engines to hit. Things like that.

There was a decent Mass Combat system for the d20 system at http://www.herocraft.de/ but sadly he seems to have removed all his d20 content.

 

[Tonguez]

Tonguez: Cool! The basic concepts here look similar to Agimimnon's (generate a number based on number, BAB and damage of attacker, subtract defender's AC) but there seems to be a bit more math.
I really like figuring reach into the attack and the morale mechanic looks good. For damage, are you keeping track of the whole unit's HP at all times? That's what it looks like.

There is a bit of math involved but I personally find it easier to determine % using 'big' numbers. It also uses 5% increments of d20 (thus simplifying the maths more). Also from reading Agimimnon's system it looks like AE% are always going to be relatively low its going to be difficulty to get over 30% let alone higher. My system allows for much higher % to be generated (even over 100 is possible - thus simulating critical hits eg if my ogres rolled a 20 on their charge they would get an Attack roll of 20+9+1+0+2 => 32 - 18 (Medusa AC) =14 giving a Pen% of 70% and damage 250 x 70% = 175pts or 6 Medusa)

As to Unit HP yes I keep track of the whole Units HP (since I rationalise the system on the basis that a Unit essentuially becomes a single creature and loss HP isn't necessarily dead soldiers - just non-effective ones) If the DM wants to they can determine casualties (damage taken/av.HP) and alter their stats (eg Unit Damage) accordingly (- as I did with the medusa unit but only if they want to have that detail)

Spellcasting
Your idea for Spell AE looks good and yes I think requiring a Concentration check to casts spells on the battlefield is good and proper (afterall all that combat is going to be a distraction and some kind of check is only fair given the potential devestation possible)

Any non-damaging and terrain shifting spells can be left since the concealment and movement rules should cover thse eventualities.

 

[Dogbrain]

What about the effects of GPS? Disparity in C&C? Urban guerilla combat?

 

[JimAde]

What about the effects of GPS? Disparity in C&C? Urban guerilla combat?

One thing at a time

I'm actually hashing out a first pass at a document. It's extremely rough and nowhere near done (obviously) but I hope to have something on the web by this week-end. If people are interested, we can use it as a starting point for argument...er...discussion

 

[Tonguez]

What is GPS? Disparity of C&C?

As for Urban Combat - thats easy Urban Units are always loose/skirmish formations the terrain is difficult ( limiting movement) and with lots of concealment. Maybe some penalties to leadership too to account for difficuly of commanding urban skirmishers

 

[Dogbrain]

What is GPS? Disparity of C&C?

Global Positioning System. After all, nobody said that this thread is JUST for "fantasy" combat, right? D20 isn't JUST for low-tech, right?

As for C&C? You're designing a wargame and don't know what C&C is? You need to learn. "C&C" refers to "command and communication". One great weakness of nearly every wargame in existence is that they almost all have ZERO C&C rules or laughably crude C&C rules. Eisenhower couldn't tell every soldier what to do.

 

[Tonguez]

Global Positioning System. After all, nobody said that this thread is JUST for "fantasy" combat, right? D20 isn't JUST for low-tech, right?

As for C&C? You're designing a wargame and don't know what C&C is? You need to learn. "C&C" refers to "command and communication". One great weakness of nearly every wargame in existence is that they almost all have ZERO C&C rules or laughably crude C&C rules. Eisenhower couldn't tell every soldier what to do.

Ah yeah um - I knew the first C was Command but couldn't figure the second (I knew it wasn't Conquer damn you Red Alert!).

The Command part is covered by the Leadership value and I suppose it should be that a unit only gets it if they are within say a 100ft radius of the leader (hence the need for sub-leaders ie Captains (say 1 Captain per 100 soldiers)

I do agree that communication needs to be factored in somewhere (Bards make for great long range communications)

As to GPS yeah hadn't considered a more modern application, although I suppose Scry does a similar thing - hmmm

 

[Dogbrain]

The Command part is covered by the Leadership value and I suppose it should be that a unit only gets it if they are within say a 100ft radius of the leader (hence the need for sub-leaders ie Captains (say 1 Captain per 100 soldiers)

What if the commander has a good radio setup? Does "Leadership" only apply to that ineffable quality possessed by a good sergeant? If so, what happens if a sniper who is half a mile or more away with a .50 rifle takes this Leader out? What morale penalties are assessed? I recall an account of a German squad that simply froze in place--in the open, on a street, during an urban operation, when their leader got killed by a sniper. They just stood there, easy to pick off, emotionally devastated.

Likewise, a great leader (like MacDonald, Early, Jackson, etc.) could influence the performance of troops very far outside a mere 100-foot radius--just by his presence on the field. Likewise, in many cases, the best "subleader" was not someone who possessed great personal leadership skills but instead was able to "transmit" the leadership of higher-ups.

I do agree that communication needs to be factored in somewhere (Bards make for great long range communications)

What about radio? I don't recall anyone saying that this was a "primitive only" set of rules. Even in a primitive setting, communication is vital. It turned the tide at First Bull Run. Union Artillery was exposed on a rise when they saw infantry advancing upon them from the flank. They turned their guns to stop the infantry before it got within musket range. A Union officer rode up and stopped the gunners from firing grape into the ranks--grape that could have destroyed the infantry. He was of the opinion that the infantry were Union and had been sent to support the guns. Once the infantry got within musket range, they fired, destroying a critical artillery emplacement and turning the battle to the Confederacy. This was a failure in communication. The officer mis-judged the identity of the infantry and could not communicate with higher-ups to find out if Union infantry really had been sent.

Actually, a large number of wargame rules cannot simulate this real situation ("real" as in "it really happened") at all. There is very little attention paid to fog of war and critical mistakes like this.