Let's make a mass combat system!

[JimAde]

Ok, I have posted what I have so far:

http://home.comcast.net/~jim.ade/ilium/MassCombat.html

As I warned, this is just off-the-cuff with no play-testing and precious little thought It's intended as a starting point for discussion.

And just to clarify, I am thinking of a system for D&D/d20 Fantasy. No radios, no vehicles unless there's an animal pulling it, etc.

Things that I feel are broken with the current version:

1) Leadership is ill-defined and has too big an impact. If Leadership is going to be such a big deal, there should be a mechanism for taking out a leader. Right now I'm leaving that to PC actions or maybe a unit spellcaster.

2) Though Leadership is a huge component of attacking, it doesn't affect defense at all. There's almost no way to help yourself avoid casualties.

3) No rules for cavalry. Since these rules are built around the individual creatures' attack and Hit Points, what do you do about cavalry? Give them more HP? Average the HP of mount and rider? And what about Warg-riding goblins. When the mount is actually a more dangerous foe than the rider, what do you do?

4) Not really a fault, just a to-do: Siege engines. I love 'em, so they have to be included

Having said all this, I think these rules are a good start for capturing that D&D flavor in mass combat. They include AoO, Charging, and the reach modifier suggestion we had earlier. What do you think?

 

[Dogbrain]

Ok, I have posted what I have so far:


3) No rules for cavalry. Since these rules are built around the individual creatures' attack and Hit Points, what do you do about cavalry? Give them more HP? Average the HP of mount and rider? And what about Warg-riding goblins. When the mount is actually a more dangerous foe than the rider, what do you do?

Similarly, when the "mount" is a vehicle, and the entirety of the combat effectiveness comes from operating that vehicle...

The 1st US Cavalry no longer rides horses, but they're still essentially cavalry--they fight while mounted.

 

[Tonguez]

Hows this for Rider & Mount uses combo of mount dominate, averaging and adding

Worg & Rider (Goblin)
Type Medium sized Mount (Beast/Humanoid)
Number 100
Space 50 (Mount space)
Speed 50 (Mount speed)

AC 14 (Average of Gob 15 & Worg 14 )
Touch 12 (ditto)
HP 35* (add Worg 30 + Gob 5)
Saves Fort 4 Refx 3 Will 1 (average of gob & worg)
Init 2 (as Worgs are int 6 used there initiative, for int<3 use riders)

Attacks 1 (Worg)
BAb 7/7 Bite
Reach 0
Damage 5

Attacks 1 (Goblin)
BAb 2/2 Morningstar
Reach 0
Damage 3

Attacks 1 (Goblin)
BAb 3/3 Javelin
Reach 0
Damage 2

Special
Mount Traits: On making a successful ride check both Mount and Rider are able to attack in the same round
Trip: A worg that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+3 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the worg.​

 

[Tonguez]

Leadership: Leadership does need to be defined - is it the ability to inspire on the feild, to command the army and what is its scope?

Also I'd allow opposing PCs to target leaders and attack them as 'deteached units with cover (from the unit)'. Once eliminated a Morale check is required at DC 10 + Leadership value

Communications (Bards & Radios): Personally I see Bards & Radios having the same effect eg the Whispering wind spell can send a 25 word message at a rate of 1 mile/10 minutes & up to 1 mile per level, Radio may be faster but its essentially the same thing.Telepathy does even better.

I'd handle Radio using feats which add to the leadership value (eg Basic Radio Leadership + 2, leader can communicate with all units in contact)

Fog of War: Thats the DMs role in the game - to generate random events and mediate play

Seige Engines: Again I'd stats these as huge monsters since a Dragon or (heaven forbid) a Tarrasque is pretty much just a Seige engine with attitude

or perhaps use Astral Construct as a model

Seige Engine - Astral Construct Lv 4
Type Large Construct
Number 1
Space
Speed 50

AC 16
Touch 11
HP 27
Saves Fort 1 Refx 3 Will 3
Init 2

Attacks 1
BAb 9/9
Reach 1
Damage 9

Special
Damage reduction 5/+1
Smack Down (Su): Once per day the construct can make a normal attack to deal additional damage equal to its HD (5d10).​

 

[JimAde]

Dogbrain: As I said, this is intended for D&D-style fantasy, not modern. However I imagine you'd just treat a unit of tanks (for example) as a unit of really really tough creatures. A unit of mechanized infantry would be similar, but have the special ability to "summon" an infantry unit. Look at the Bearded Devil sample unit at the end of the document for an example of what I mean.

But, again, going for the D&D thing.

Tonguez: Great ideas. For the Goblin/Warg combo I would submit two changes to your suggestions.

1) The "make a riding roll to allow both attacks" is how things work for an individual. Since I think each unit should only ever roll one attack per round, we have to do things differently. For these rules, I think we would assume an average number of successes on the Ride check and adjust the Attack Modifier and Damage accordingly. In the example of Goblin/Warg cavalry, I look in the SRD and see that the goblin entry lists a ride skill modifier of +11(!) which grants an automatic success. So the unit's Attack Modifier and Damage should be the average of the two, but the unit's # of Attacks should be 2! Gads they're dangerous.

2) I would not try to do the Trip ability. Since the entire unit won't succeed or fail together it's hard to do on a unit level. I'd instead give them a bonus of +1 or +2 on their Attack Modifier to reflect this ability. So your goblin cavalry unit now looks like this:

Worg & Rider (Goblin)
Type Medium sized Mount (Beast/Humanoid)
Number 100
Space 50 (Mount space)
Speed 50 (Mount speed)

AC 14 (Average of Gob 15 & Worg 14 )
Touch 12 (ditto)
HP 35* (add Worg 30 + Gob 5)
Saves Fort 4 Refx 3 Will 1 (average of gob & worg)
Init 2 (as Worgs are int 6 used there initiative, for int<3 use riders)
Leadership +3 (typical for 1st-level warriors)

Melee (Bite/Morning Star)
# of Attacks 2
Attack Modifier +5/+5 (+1 Trip)
Reach Modifier 0
Damage 6/6
Ranged (Javelin)
# of Attacks 1
Attack Modifier +3/+3
Damage 3/3
Ammo 5
Range Increment 30 ft.

Special
Trip (Ex): A Worg receives a free Trip attack when it successfully bites. This is reflected in a +1 applied to the unit's Attack Modifier. The unit does not gain this bonus when attacking foes with 4 or more legs, or who are otherwise exceptionally stable (like Dwarves). This bonus only applies to foes of size Medium or smaller.

 

[JimAde]

Tonguez: Dumb question time: What's an Astral Construct? I don't have my books here and it's not in the SRD.

I like your suggestion on attacking leaders. The Morale check for losing a leader would, of course, have to use the unit's new, lower Leadership . I'm now confusing my sources. Was it you who suggested that if a leader falls a lieutenant with a Leadership value 2 lower can take over? I used that in my rules for splitting units and it would apply here as well.

Communications I'll leave alone for the moment. For now, let's just assume perfect communication in the chain of command and add confusion later.

The problem with treating a siege engine as a single big creature is that it has to have a crew. You could cast Sleep on the crew and take out the siege engine without doing a point of damage. I would lean toward defining the unit as the people in it, with really weird Attack Modifier and damage entries. So a catapult unit with 5 catapults and 30 crew members (is that reasonable?) might look like this:

Number: 30
Space: 100 ft.
Speed: 10 ft.
AC, HP, Init and Leadership would be normal for the crew members

Melee (short sword)
# of attacks: 1
Attack Modifier: +2/+2 (or whatever)
Damage: 4/4

Ranged (catapult)
# of attacks: 1/6 (that is, 1 per 6 crew)
Attack Modifier: +6/+6
Damage: Something obscene
Ammo: 50 (or whatever)
Range Increment: Big

Obviously I don't have the siege engine rules handy. The point is, the # of attacks is a fraction, but the damage is big and probably handled like an Area Effect Damage spell. We don't even worry about the catapults themselves, assuming that if the unit takes casualties the siege engines might or might not be destroyed. Either way they can't be fired. It's abstract.

 

[Tonguez]

Good mod for the Worg trip ability - yur right it is a bit much at the Unit level

also Astral Construct is in the SRD - under the Psionic Creatures section - it basically gives 'builds' at each level and a menu of abilities which the Psion can select when building their construct. But in this case its just a model for us to use to make seige engines and other devestation

equally your idea of making Seige engines into really bog weapons is very logical

 

[JimAde]

Good mod for the Worg trip ability - yur right it is a bit much at the Unit level

also Astral Construct is in the SRD - under the Psionic Creatures section - it basically gives 'builds' at each level and a menu of abilities which the Psion can select when building their construct. But in this case its just a model for us to use to make seige engines and other devestation

equally your idea of making Seige engines into really bog weapons is very logical

That explains why I didn't recognize it. I don't use the psionics stuff.

I've been working with your cavalry ideas some more and they look good. I'm not sure about adding the HPs together, though. It makes cavalry units really tough. Maybe they should be averaged. In the Worg/Goblin case, for example, what happens if the goblin gets killed? The worg is still dangerous, but he won't be coordinated with the rest of the unit. And if the Worg is killed the goblin is really out of luck. I'll try it both ways and see what happens.

So I'm tinkering with this a bit more and two things jump out at me:

1) There's a lot of math. I don't mind needing a calculator too much, but it bugs me that there are three separate calculations. I'm going to work on whittling them down.

2) As Pyrex said earlier in the thread, the AE that is being generated is too low. I don't think we should multiply by 5, but some multiplier (or a smaller divisor, actually) is probably in order.

Just to give you an idea, I've put together a spreadsheet that will pit two units against each other. I put the elite Halfling slingers (60 of 'em) in there against 30 Ogre Zombies. I rigged it so the ogres never got to attack just to see how long they would last. After 20 rounds there were still 7 ogres left. The Halflings get 3 attacks a round, at an average +7 and have a +8 Leadership. Even with their tiny damage rating of 3 they should be turning the zombies into hamburger, shouldn't they?

Anyway, I will work on these issues, just wanted to let anybody who is interested know that I haven't given up yet.

 

[Tonguez]

That explains why I didn't recognize it. I don't use the psionics stuff.

I've been working with your cavalry ideas some more and they look good. I'm not sure about adding the HPs together, though. It makes cavalry units really tough. Maybe they should be averaged. In the Worg/Goblin case, for example, what happens if the goblin gets killed? The worg is still dangerous, but he won't be coordinated with the rest of the unit. And if the Worg is killed the goblin is really out of luck. I'll try it both ways and see what happens.

I had considered averaging rather than adding but averaging can do strange things when both mount and rider are intelligent (like in the case of Worg riders hybrid who would only be 2HD instead of the Worgs 4HD) even though as you said the mount is more dangerous than the rider

The other thing is Worg has Int 5 Wis 14 Cha 10 - a Goblin has Int 10 Wis 9 Cha 6
So in regards Units I'd say 'noticing whats going on around you' (Wis) and 'working with others' (cha) is vital and Worgs are actually better at it than Gobs - in fact the Goblin is pretty much superfluous. Really the only time a Gobs higher Int might come in handy is if the Worg rider is acting alone (Skirmish) NOT in a unit

Personally I'm happy with Cavalry units being deadly - we just need to include 'Spearwall' and similar formations/feats that give Infantry units bonuses against charging cavalry

1. There is a lot of Math (like D20 generally though)- but that should be partially assuaged once the stat blocks are prepared, then the hardest part is figuring casualties and I'm not sure how that could be simplified

Actually one thing I did notice was that the current system of figuring damage
Total Damage = # of attackers * # of attacks * Damage * AE

is in fact identical to mine except that I figure Unit damage (ie the # of attackers * # of attacks * Damage) part within the Stat block and track it as HP loss rather than figuring it all in the damage calculation and tracking casualties (which I leave as an optional step)

2. Yes the AE generation method does make AEs too low (and thus combats too long) my suggestion of 5% steps is based on the fact that d20 works in 5% steps and so its consistent with the rest of the D20 system.

If it helps think of it as
AE = (1d20 + Attack Modifier + Leadership (+/- any other modifiers) – AC) /20

although I've always found multiplication easier than division

 

[JimAde]

You've got good points on the Worg/Goblin combination. The attacks and damage are already averaged, so I'll leave the HP added together for now. You're right, too, about setting for a charge, etc. but we can leave that for later.

Now the numbered points:

1) The reason the Total Damage calculation includes Number and # of Attacks is two fold. First, I think a stat block should be fairly static. I don't want to combine the number and damage in a stat block and then have to re-calculate them every time the unit takes casualties. Second, I want to preserve the difference between a Standard Action (1 attack) and Full-Round Action (possibly multiple attacks). I think this is an important part of the "d20 feel" though I could be talked out of it if it becomes too burdensome.

Your method of tracking the HP of the whole unit solves a problem I have, which is that if the attacking unit does really tiny damage it might never cause even one casualty. But it is one more number to track. I'll try it out, tracking the unit's total HP and re-calculating its Number each time.

BTW, I am just grabbing offered ideas and incorporating them, so don't be surprised if things look familiar I honestly don't remember if I copied the TD formula from you, from Agimimnon, or developed it in parallel from both your ideas. When we publish this and make millions I'll be sure to cut you in

2) Yes, I am messing with the divisor. I have tried 20, 50 and 75. I think only play-testing will get us the right number. I am keeping it a divisor so we end up with a number less than 1 that can be plugged directly into the next step.

I was thinking about it this morning and it seems that the original division by 100 is correct mathematically (Halfling slingers really WOULD take a long time to whittle down ogre zombies!). I think it's a symptom of the core rules. A high-level creature takes a long time to put down with regular weapons. Actually I forgot to apply the zombies' DR 5/Slashing. They would take NO damage from sling bullets (1d4). I'm going to run some tests with more reasonable match-ups and I'll let you know.

Thanks a lot for working on this with me. I don't know if it will ever go anywhere but I really enjoy rules tinkering. Is that bent?