"Let's rest now"

[Vegepygmy]

It's a nice theory, and I won't say that Vancian magic doesn't make it easier to fall into that kind of play, but that's what it is: a style of play.

Exactly. Some people hate to manage their resources and just want to blow their wad. We have one guy in our group who does it so consistently that it's become something of an inside joke with us; he simply can't resist the urge to use his biggest gun (whatever it may be) at the very first opportunity.

 

[pemerton]

I've started giving them Nature/WIS/etc checks to understand the situation

I usually don't even require a check of some sort.

I'm also from the "no check" school of thought. If I, as GM, think that the game might be better if the players took account of some factor that they have overlooked, then I'll just mention it. I don't see the point of making it contingent on the result of a d20 roll. Conversely, if the game can play just as well without the players having regard to the factor in question, then I don't see any need to talk about it unless the players bring it up.

As far as resting is concerned, I don't tend to run extended dungeon scenarios so the "rest or retreat" decision doesn't come up that often. But generally my players will keep going until a viable rest opportunity comes up. If they have to keep going without dailies or low on hp/surges, they will - adapting their tactics appropriately, while (to an extent, at least) relying on me as GM not to hurl assailants at them that they have no chance of beating. I find that 4e's encounter building tools are a big help for me in this department.

I dont think this was a 'Let's Rest' moment so much as a 'We didnt plan our op' moment. I am like Dannyalcatraz, I plan the extraction before and during the operation. On a good op, that means that once you get the mcguffin, it should only be a matter of running fast enough to get to safety.

This reminds me of a Rolemaster session I ran over 20 years ago. The PCs were committed to an assassination mission against the Scarlet Brotherhood's ambassador to Greyhawk. They had a good knowledge of the defences and capabilities of the other NPCs guarding the ambassador, and
they planned the assassination in great detail, including pouring dozens of spell points worth of buffs (to hit bonuses, defensive bonuses, invis, etc) onto their party ninja.

The all gathered invisible and silent on the hills around the ambassador's residence, then sent the buffed PC in to do the job. Which she did. But then the retaliation came. One of the Scarlet Brotherhood NPCs - a mind monk, whose capabilities the players knew well - started using his mind-detection spells to track down all the thinking beings in the area, and then quickly gathered his NPC allies and started hunting them down. And it was about this point that the players realised they hadn't planned their escape. And their lack of planning was compounded by the fact that they were all invisible and silent, and so couldn't communicate with one another to try and improvise a coordinated response.

It became a free-for-all, as the PCs fled, some being successful while others got caught up in combats with various of the Scarlet Brotherhood NPCs. In the end the party elementalist summoned flying air elementals to evacuate those PCs who hadn't made it out on their own, and only one PC died (the secondary PC of the player of the ninja, and the ninja's partner - he was decapitated, and had to be buried with a bust - carved from the party shapechanger sitting as a life model - in place of his head). But the episode lived on in the memory of that playing group for a long time.

The player of the ninja suffered again from bad planning a few levels later. Being caught in a combat beyond her capabilities, she decided to retreat, having the advantage of speed. She was running through the streets of a city she didn't know very well, so decided to adopt a systematic approach to avoid getting lost. She turned left, left, left, and . . . left, and ended up stumbling into the rear of her pursuers - who then turned on her and cut her down before she could escape again. (From memory, her body was returned to Greyhawk and buried with that of her decapitated partner.)

 

[terrya]

I my sound like a jack-ass when i say this but from reading this thread i do wonder how your players manage to get any enjoyment from this. If you were to give them any check or advice of any sort all you have done is subtract from their gaming experiance. Will it give you a headache if they die? Yes. Will they have to roll new charecters slowing down the pase of the game that day? Yes. Yet in my honist opinion if players are not punished (fairly) for making their own mistakes it tottaly takes away any enjoyment of a role playing game and turns it into a social group that should be playing a ps3 rpg that has save points.

The crutch of "BUT BUT THE CHARECTER WOULD KNOW THIS EVEN IF STUPID HUMAN DOESNT" is not ok. To eliminate this excuse each charecter should be given a campagain relevant background that lists from them usefull information that can even strongly hint about safe places to rest in the area etc because then if they forget it was the players fault. For the game to be intresting and challenging it is the players you need to test.

On the topic of how monsters react to rest it depends on the intelgence of the monster but i personally am normally inclined to quite heavily punish pc's for resting in dungeons where i can unless they take logical percausions that make it plausable

 

[S'mon]

I my sound like a jack-ass when i say this but from reading this thread i do wonder how your players manage to get any enjoyment from this.

Well, I think it's a balancing act. I did TPK this group of players on their first ever session with me GMing, so it's not like I'm afraid to challenge them. The circumstances were:

I had previously told the players that the goblins were nocturnal and they were advised to complete the mission in daylight. This was the previous day in game-time, but around 3 months ago real-time, and we had just had an 8-week gap between sessions. Sure, they should have remembered what I told them, but in the circumstances I felt a skill check was fair to recall the info.

I accept it is a fine call, I am not planning to do this every time, but there is no doubt the group do feel challenged - "Every time I play I'm terrified my PC will die" is a typical comment.

Also, I do vary my style a bit by campaign. I've just come off running a Necromancer games Meatgrinder campaign, 'Vault of Larin Karr', this game is set in the Forgotten Realms and I made a conscious decision to DM it in a bit more of a Realmsian style, which means a bit less of the adversarial Gygaxianism and a bit more of the Greenwoody 'Just be nice to the players Fancy, they'll be nice to you'...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzsWaEs_dNc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzsWaEs_dNc[/ame]

 

[S'mon]

2. The players usually like to set up very defensible positions with one way into the chamber. That chamber is now their tomb as enemies will bring down the walls and ceilings of the corridor to trap them, particularly if the PC's have demonstrated considerable power.

While I rarely have monsters who can readily collapse the tunnel, still I call that setup - dead end position with one way in/out - the 'Party Killer'. It never seems to occur to the players that if the monsters can't get in, then most likely the PCs can't get out, either. And if a powerful monster/group find them, the PCs have trapped themselves and guaranteed their own demise. Far better to secure a location with 2 ways in/out (that do not readily connect to each other) - it is far less likely that the PCs will be attacked by 2 groups simultaneously or that the enemy will be powerful, coordinated and numerous enough to block both entrances simultaneously.

 

[prosfilaes]

Yet in my honist opinion if players are not punished (fairly) for making their own mistakes it tottaly takes away any enjoyment of a role playing game and turns it into a social group that should be playing a ps3 rpg that has save points. ...

For the game to be intresting and challenging it is the players you need to test.

Perhaps other people enjoy different things about an RPG then you do. I personally don't play RPGs so I can be quizzed on facts about the sleeping cycle of fictional creatures.

And can you please use a spell-checker? It would make way easier to read your posts.

 

[terrya]

Perhaps other people enjoy different things about an RPG then you do. I personally don't play RPGs so I can be quizzed on facts about the sleeping cycle of fictional creatures.

And can you please use a spell-checker? It would make way easier to read your posts.

i'm dyslexic and often posting in a rush at work so apologies moving forward i will try to find a quick method of spell checking. Does en world provide one?

Back to the topic on hand now that weve got a tottaly irrelvant factor out of the way I personally feel that if you find the picture im painting not to you liking i am not saying you shouldnt play rpgs i simply suggested a platform more suitable.

Playing in a world that provides no real danager, where the dm cuddles you when you do somthing stupid and continually gives you the chance of a do over beyond asking "are you sure you want to do that" you might as well read your charecters a story.

Even my own players would probablly disagree with me and if your in the same mind as allot of older games you play to socialise with your friends and follow a plot because you havent the time to take it seriously any more but if i ever get to that point in my life i would stop playing this game because it would be counter productive and lead me to seriously look at what i should be doing with my life

 

[Aberzanzorax]

Terrya, you're not wrong, although I think you're missing some of the nuances to it.

Yes, if every time players are about to do something stupid, the DM says "are you sure"...then you end up with a situation like you describe.


However, isn't it fair to remind the dragonhunter (whose player has never seen a red dragon) who has maxed ranks in dragons, a backstory of being a monk studying dragons, and has killed/hunted dozens of dragons that a red dragon breathes fire? Maybe not even remind, but tell him for the first time ever?

I can see a response of "he should have asked to roll his knowledge dragons". Fair enough.


But, there is also an element of failure on the DM's part to communicate the setting/environment/threat in some cases. It is these cases that a dm might speak up, because, having provided incomplete information before, they might recognize the need to provide complete info now.

 

[Aberzanzorax]

Back to the OP, though...

This thread reminds me of a party we were going to make (but then I moved away from my group).

We were going to play with the assumptions of D&D (3e). Our plan was to make an adventuring party that never, ever needed to rest. Then we'd run modules/published adventures (which is what we usually did anyway) and see how our party rocked the assumptions built in of "here's a safe place for players to rest" and "the players will need at least 7 days to do this in hit and run tactics" or even "the players will need several days of travel time, including rests".


I think we were going to go with a binder (maybe for healing), a warlock for the pew-pew and controlling, and maybe some book of nine swords characters...all classes with insta recharges and no "dailies".

Oh, and we were all going to be warforged (no fatigue, no need to sleep...not even a need to stop marching).



As a group who never did the 15 min adventuring day, we thought that removing ALL rests would result in some weird and interesting phenomena, especially within the constraints/assumptions of published modules where it is very much expected there will be resting.

 

[terrya]

You highlight a very spefic and obscure example that is a failing of the dm not the player and in your example of course the dm should correct it. But i personally avoid developing charecters that would have some kind of intitlment to knowledge that would effect the campagain and when I do i give them the knowledge (usually in written form) i provide it up front what they know.

Anything beyond that point is up to them to keep notes at the end of game sessions etc to ensure that even if its 3 months later it will be the same as if it was the very next day.