D&D 4E Let's Talk About 4E On Its Own Terms [+]

[FrogReaver]

Well, I was around when 2e was written, nobody that I know complained about it. Heck, there's a ton of once-per-day stuff in 1e as well! For example a 7th level Druid (Initiate of the 5th Circle) gets "Ability to change form up to three times per day" which is actually even more restricted to only allow each form to be assumed once per day. Paladins get 'lay on hands' once per day, and Cure Disease once per week (more uses gained at higher levels). Paladins have the most time-restricted ability of all 'call for his warhorse' ONCE EVERY 10 YEARS. Monks have a once per day 'self heal' ability, and the 'Quivering Palm' which can only be used once per week.

I'm pretty sure ALL of these strictures predate 1e as well, as all these classes appear in D&D or one of its supplements, or in SR/TD. I don't disagree that 4e surfaces this kind of mechanic to a much higher degree, but still, nobody made so much as a peep before 4e.

#1 I think you missed my larger point - without the internet to really talk through such things at the time, there wasn't really a place where people really got together to do that. Even if they had those opinions they likely wouldn't be expressed, or if they didn't have those opinions it's probably because they never thought on the topic at the time and then as soon as they do think on it... they form those same opinions.

And #2, most of what you cite is magical in origin and no one has a problem with limits on magical in origin abilities - because they are magic and that's just how magic works in the fiction. I really don't understand why we keep circling the wagons on this one.

 

[FrogReaver]

Martial power is just as much magic as any other power source. I mean, do you think there's any non-magical way a guy with a sword fights a 12' tall 1000+ lb humanoid? OK, what about a dragon? It is, and always has been, pretty much all 'magic'.

Ummm, in my fiction it's not. It's a combination of skill, luck and general bad-assery.

 

[FrogReaver]

But there were also non-magical abilities with similar limitations, as I demonstrated. While you're correct that without the internet, if individual tables did have problems with this sort of thing, it would be hard to know (barring a letter or article in Dragon or something).

I viewed the abilities you cited as magic/supernatural.

This apparently didn't stick, as we have such things to this day. What really amused me was how few times I hear people complain about things like the Battlemaster only being able to use a couple of Maneuvers without taking an hour-long nap (let alone stuff like Action Surge or Second Wind).

Sure, there's 3-4 abilities sprinkled in, that do that on the 5e fighter. 4e was almost every ability, almost every level for every class. There's definitely an order of magnitude difference in degree. Like you couldn't go one step in 4e without being reminded of that.

But then again, I've long said 4e was ahead of it's time. What was seen as immersion-breaking then is just how things work now.

I don't agree with either statement. 4e was a cool game, not alot out there like it either, but it's been 10+ years and no one has produced anything really resembling 4e - except maybe a few heartbreaker clones. If it was ahead of it's time we'd see more like it by now IMO.

Get back to me when the 'immersion-breaking' things are occurring in a d&d game on anywhere near the same scale as 4e used them and no one is complaining about them.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

I viewed the abilities you cited as magic/supernatural.

i'd say calling the first magic or supernatural would be a stretch. it seems to me to be more a reference to japanese martial arts shouts then anything else.

the second explicitly states it is an "ability natural to the Savage" and "not truly magic" and that "Detect magic will not detect it". it could not be any more clear that the ability is not magic or supernatural.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

#1 I think you missed my larger point - without the internet to really talk through such things at the time, there wasn't really a place where people really got together to do that. Even if they had those opinions they likely wouldn't be expressed, or if they didn't have those opinions it's probably because they never thought on the topic at the time and then as soon as they do think on it... they form those same opinions.

Listen, I'm an old enough guy that the Internet didn't really come around (and by that I mean AT ALL for regular people, not 'got big') until I was old enough to have lived to adulthood before it existed. We were not ignorant barbarians. We actually went places, talked to people, 'got around' in fact, rather more than people do today actually. Sure, we didn't have online forums to discuss all our opinions on a daily basis. I can still tell you, people were not going on about time based usage 'powers' in pre-4e D&D, they just weren't. People DID express their opinions, and it just never came up, because it simply wasn't something notable to talk about.

And #2, most of what you cite is magical in origin and no one has a problem with limits on magical in origin abilities - because they are magic and that's just how magic works in the fiction. I really don't understand why we keep circling the wagons on this one.

And again, and I posted this before, EVERYTHING IN D&D IS 'MAGIC'. It is all entirely fantastical in nature! There is simply no friggin way that characters, of ANY CLASS are doing stuff that bears anything beyond a faint resemblance to stuff that normal human beings in the 'mundane' world do, not past 3rd level for sure. The 'it is only a problem for the mundane' is thus a non-argument, it doesn't fly any better than a lead duck.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Ummm, in my fiction it's not. It's a combination of skill, luck and general bad-assery.

Right, so, you know what the square-cubed law is, right? So, you know that a 12' tall giant is 8x heavier than a 6' tall human, and thus logically must also be 8 times stronger, not to mention having twice the reach! I mean, I'm no ancient warrior, but I did do plenty of SCA stuff. I can guarantee you, you are toast if you try to take on someone 8x stronger than you with twice the reach (and a weapon appropriate to that). You're NOT DOING IT. Crap, they can just drop kick your ass, you're done. 1,600 pounds of sheer muscle. Yeah, you might actually beat a hill giant, one time in 50 with a really lucky shot (not really even emulated well by D&D's combat system, but whatever). There SIMPLY IS NOTHING realistic about this stuff. It ain't a matter of opinion. There are plenty of 'bad assed' people in the world, they'd be crushed flat, no matter what, period, end of story. So it is NOT happening as a mundane process. It isn't something you can handwave away, MAGICAL naughty word IS HAPPENING WHEN YOU FIGHT, end of story.

 

[James Gasik]

More examples from Warriors and Priests of the Realms:

Also, the Warriors of Rashemen, who gain the same 1/day rage.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

More examples from Warriors and Priests of the Realms:
View attachment 354696
View attachment 354697

think you accidentally posted the same image twice.

 

[James Gasik]

think you accidentally posted the same image twice.

Doh. The second image was for Warriors of Rashemen, who also got 1/day rage.

 

[FrogReaver]

Listen, I'm an old enough guy that the Internet didn't really come around (and by that I mean AT ALL for regular people, not 'got big') until I was old enough to have lived to adulthood before it existed. We were not ignorant barbarians. We actually went places, talked to people, 'got around' in fact, rather more than people do today actually. Sure, we didn't have online forums to discuss all our opinions on a daily basis. I can still tell you, people were not going on about time based usage 'powers' in pre-4e D&D, they just weren't. People DID express their opinions, and it just never came up, because it simply wasn't something notable to talk about.

None of this addresses my point in any way. Its tangential at best. You talking about X when I’m saying Y is really frustrating. I’m dropping it now because we apparently can’t have this conversation.