D&D 4E Let's Talk About 4E On Its Own Terms [+]

[Mannahnin]

I don't see any fun no challenge in playing a crossbow-user who can occasionally cast some spells. For me, a magic user should be using magic as his main trick. If I wanted to play a crossbow-user, I would play a fighter instead, perhaps multiclassing it with wizard if I want occasional spells. That would be challenging and rewarding. To play just for the challenge alone is not my idea of fun.

But, perhaps I'm just not wired that way. After all, I started D&D with 4e (actually, very late 3.5, but not enough to consider the experience meaningful to me). Never experienced old school RPG, but the idea that these posts are giving me is that this kind of game would be very stressful for me.

I get you. And it's not to everyone's taste, certainly! I enjoy it as a very different style.

It may help you to understand that magic was still a Magic-User's main trick back in the day. Combat wouldn't be taking up most of the session time. And when an M-U did deploy one of his smaller number of spells, it was generally much more impactful.

Charm Person made the target your slave or henchman, not merely briefly helpful. And it was permanent in OD&D; in Greyhawk and later versions it would still be a month before they got another save to shake it off if they were low Intelligence, a week if moderate Int, or a whole day only if high Int.
Sleep took out a whole encounter's worth of low level monsters at once with no saving throw, assuming they weren't undead or a construct.
Light allowed a save, but if cast on a powerful single monster's eyes and they didn't save meant it was either completely unable to attack or took a heavy penalty to attacks (depending on which edition we're talking). This one spell could make the difference between the fighters killing the monster easily or being killed by it.
Invisibility was PERMANENT until the target attacked (which meant forever if you cast it on an object, for example).

The more powerful nature of most spells meant that an old-school MU wasn't necessarily using magic every round (although they might still at higher levels, especially once they had some wands and scrolls), but when they did use it that magic was usually STRONG. Is it cooler and more magical to use weaker spells every round, or strong spells less often? That's a matter of opinion.

 

[James Gasik]

See I have no problems with people who like that sort of thing. When I first started playing AD&D, that's just how it was done. Over the years though, I've come to enjoy other parts of the game, and slow, methodical dungeon delving really isn't for me, and I'm glad it's not the default- if I want that experience, I can just play Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord or something, lol.

It's when people say "the game should be this way" or "the game must be this way" or "we should go back to this paradigm" that I feel the need to speak- this shift in how D&D is played didn't happen overnight, and not without reason. If a given person wants a game where you have a designated torch or lantern bearer, where you meticulously track your gear down to the last piton, and your 1st-level Wizard is a sleep spell on legs, after which his best contribution is to throw darts or oil- fantastic!

You go do that, and happy gaming to you! As for me, been there, done that, I'm quite happy to have on tap light, magical attacks, and a prestidigitation to flavor my food and clean my shirts.

 

[SPECTRE666]

MCDM RPG?

 

[cavalier973]

I don't see any fun no challenge in playing a crossbow-user who can occasionally cast some spells. For me, a magic user should be using magic as his main trick. If I wanted to play a crossbow-user, I would play a fighter instead, perhaps multiclassing it with wizard if I want occasional spells. That would be challenging and rewarding. To play just for the challenge alone is not my idea of fun.

But, perhaps I'm just not wired that way. After all, I started D&D with 4e (actually, very late 3.5, but not enough to consider the experience meaningful to me). Never experienced old school RPG, but the idea that these posts are giving me is that this kind of game would be very stressful for me.

Check out the YouTube podcast “3d6, Down the Line”, especially their current campaign, “The Halls of Arden Vul”. They use a few houserules, but they stick closely to the Moldvay Basic/OSE rules, with mapping and carefully counting rations and torches. It has been very entertaining, to me.

The cleric got high enough to cast “Continual Light”, and he cast it on his holy symbol, so they have a perpetual light source that can be “doused” by him hiding it beneath his robe.

 

[pemerton]

Over the past year or two I've GMed a fair bit of Torchbearer 2e. One of the PCs is an Elven Dreamwalker, which is that system's version of the Elven MU. She knows three or four spells, and has cast about that many. She mostly contributes via her expertise as a Scholar, a Lore Master, a Healer, an Alchemist, etc.

But the game is designed to support those sorts of contributions (via its version of skill challenge-type rules, which apply to martial, physical, social and magical contests). The Dreamwalker is also competent enough in a fight, even though it's not her main thing. She uses a ceremonial Elven weapon, the Half-Moon Glaive.

 

[Kannik]

The cleric got high enough to cast “Continual Light”, and he cast it on his holy symbol, so they have a perpetual light source that can be “doused” by him hiding it beneath his robe.

Heheh, in our groups we always cast it on the inside of a scroll tube, effectively making a flashlight.

(Also, the classic cast inside of a hooded lantern for an easily dousable light source...)

 

[cavalier973]

I get you. And it's not to everyone's taste, certainly! I enjoy it as a very different style.

It may help you to understand that magic was still a Magic-User's main trick back in the day. Combat wouldn't be taking up most of the session time. And when an M-U did deploy one of his smaller number of spells, it was generally much more impactful.

Charm Person made the target your slave or henchman, not merely briefly helpful. And it was permanent in OD&D; in Greyhawk and later versions it would still be a month before they got another save to shake it off if they were low Intelligence, a week if moderate Int, or a whole day only if high Int.
Sleep took out a whole encounter's worth of low level monsters at once with no saving throw, assuming they weren't undead or a construct.
Light allowed a save, but if cast on a powerful single monster's eyes and they didn't save meant it was either completely unable to attack or took a heavy penalty to attacks (depending on which edition we're talking). This one spell could make the difference between the fighters killing the monster easily or being killed by it.
Invisibility was PERMANENT until the target attacked (which meant forever if you cast it on an object, for example).

The more powerful nature of most spells meant that an old-school MU wasn't necessarily using magic every round (although they might still at higher levels, especially once they had some wands and scrolls), but when they did use it that magic was usually STRONG. Is it cooler and more magical to use weaker spells every round, or strong spells less often? That's a matter of opinion.

The core 4e wizard cantrips were all utility spells. None of them did damage, and none of them could physically hinder another creature, though they could be used to deceive or direct attention.
Even “Light” doesn’t have the B/X function of blinding another creature.

They gave the 4e wizard that extra bit of mystique that I attribute to storybook wizards—especially Merlin in “The Once and Future King”.

 

[Voadam]

The core 4e wizard cantrips were all utility spells. None of them did damage, and none of them could physically hinder another creature, though they could be used to deceive or direct attention.
Even “Light” doesn’t have the B/X function of blinding another creature.

They gave the 4e wizard that extra bit of mystique that I attribute to storybook wizards—especially Merlin in “The Once and Future King”.

4e gave wizards decent at will attack spells. In 5e these are cantrips. 5e cantrips that are attack spells are at will, do a little though still decent damage that goes up by tier, just like 4e at wills.

In 3.5 cantrips were minor spells, some of which were attack spells that did non-scaling minor damage (d3 acid or cold or a d6 to only undead), but you got only a limited amount of them per day so they still had to be managed as a daily resource and could not be thrown out every round in a 10 round fight, Same as in 3.0, and similar to the limited per day cantrips in 1e Unearthed Arcana except those were not even capable of dealing a hp damage and were limited to even more minor things like cleaning dishes or adding flavor to a drink.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I get you. And it's not to everyone's taste, certainly! I enjoy it as a very different style.

It may help you to understand that magic was still a Magic-User's main trick back in the day. Combat wouldn't be taking up most of the session time. And when an M-U did deploy one of his smaller number of spells, it was generally much more impactful.

Charm Person made the target your slave or henchman, not merely briefly helpful. And it was permanent in OD&D; in Greyhawk and later versions it would still be a month before they got another save to shake it off if they were low Intelligence, a week if moderate Int, or a whole day only if high Int.
Sleep took out a whole encounter's worth of low level monsters at once with no saving throw, assuming they weren't undead or a construct.
Light allowed a save, but if cast on a powerful single monster's eyes and they didn't save meant it was either completely unable to attack or took a heavy penalty to attacks (depending on which edition we're talking). This one spell could make the difference between the fighters killing the monster easily or being killed by it.
Invisibility was PERMANENT until the target attacked (which meant forever if you cast it on an object, for example).

The more powerful nature of most spells meant that an old-school MU wasn't necessarily using magic every round (although they might still at higher levels, especially once they had some wands and scrolls), but when they did use it that magic was usually STRONG. Is it cooler and more magical to use weaker spells every round, or strong spells less often? That's a matter of opinion.

I don't think that is the choice. How about a fairly weak crossbow replacement that has the color of being a spell? Or an alternate choice that is similar to some basic stealth ability, or a minor temporary light source? It's not a choice of one or the other, you can have cantrips that give a flavor of magic without a giant powerup.

 

[Zeromaru X]

but you got only a limited amount of them per day so they still had to be managed as a daily resource and could not be thrown out every round in a 10 round fight

Same with crossbow bolts, but at least those cantrips are spells...