D&D 5E Let's talk about actually *creating* high-level content.

[Asisreo]

You can follow the KISS principle and still have a reasonably challenging encounter that prevents the party from waltzing in and going nova. The main thing to think about is designing the lair around the monster such that if the party tries to just sit there and mindlessly dish out damage, they're all going to die. You don't need tons of zones and ability-neutralizing things. Here's how I'd do an adult dragon (whom we've given acid immunity):


Quick sketch of the above-ground part of the lair (embellish to taste):

View attachment 133880

The pools are connected by an underground network of passages. They additionally have a layer of mist above them, allowing the dragon to stay hidden as he peeks above the surface to surveil the party. The cave is dark, giving the party -5 to passive perception. The dragon's main tactic is to Hide, peek above the surface of a pool, use his breath attack on whichever branch he figures will hurt the party the worst, and dive back down beneath the surface, where he waits for his breath to recharge. Following the rules for hidden combat, Readied actions are resolved after applying damage except in the event the dragon fails his Hide. Wizards who Ready spells may, therefore find their concentration broken by the breath weapon.

Once the dragon is below half health, he retreats to his main cave, where he quaffs a couple healing potions from his hoard, hides somewhere, and waits for the party. If the party retreats, he vacates the premises, taking the best treasure with him but leaving behind some consolation prizes.

You can see here if the party uses low-level tactics, they will get their asses handed to them. I'm sure people used to playing high-level casters have all sorts of awesome stuff they can do to win this, and that's the point. Make them do their awesome stuff instead of just spewing out Disintegrate a bunch.

To give background, the dragon is too lazy to have actually set anything up. The acidic lakes were there before he was, he just decided it was the best place to settle down (acid immunity and puddings don't bother him any).

The antimagic and wildmagic zones are always more frequent the closer they are to the inner planes. They aren't going to be placed particularly well, but the dragon does put his treasure in these zones to prevent them from being stolen.

The dragon doesn't expect intruders so he's not particularly alert but he's not aloof. If they get too close, things could go wrong.

But ultimately, the dragon's tactics will be about diving in and out of the acid and perhaps dragon characters down alongside them. 10d10 is considered "dangerous" damage at this level but its definitely significant enough to do serious damage.

Oh, I forgot to mention its a DC 16 con save for half-damage so its not like a guaranteed 10d10 every round: certain characters might have the proficiencies to mitigate and the armor basically reduces the damage from 55 all the way down to 13 per round which isn't horrible.

But that's what I think is very cool about it. If the party keeps their eyes up, they should be able to get through it quite easily. The difference is that unlike Disintegrate spam, the players had to use tools they both earned and built skillfully.

That's my favorite part of high-level D&D and its where I derive the most pleasure: when they say "Woo! That was awesome! I can't believe we beat it!" Even when they never dropped below half-HP.

 

[fearsomepirate]

To give background, the dragon is too lazy to have actually set anything up. The acidic lakes were there before he was, he just decided it was the best place to settle down (acid immunity and puddings don't bother him any).

The antimagic and wildmagic zones are always more frequent the closer they are to the inner planes. They aren't going to be placed particularly well, but the dragon does put his treasure in these zones to prevent them from being stolen.

The dragon doesn't expect intruders so he's not particularly alert but he's not aloof. If they get too close, things could go wrong.

But ultimately, the dragon's tactics will be about diving in and out of the acid and perhaps dragon characters down alongside them. 10d10 is considered "dangerous" damage at this level but its definitely significant enough to do serious damage.

Oh, I forgot to mention its a DC 16 con save for half-damage so its not like a guaranteed 10d10 every round: certain characters might have the proficiencies to mitigate and the armor basically reduces the damage from 55 all the way down to 13 per round which isn't horrible.

But that's what I think is very cool about it. If the party keeps their eyes up, they should be able to get through it quite easily. The difference is that unlike Disintegrate spam, the players had to use tools they both earned and built skillfully.

That's my favorite part of high-level D&D and its where I derive the most pleasure: when they say "Woo! That was awesome! I can't believe we beat it!" Even when they never dropped below half-HP.

Well, if it works out, great. It seems like a high cognitive-load sort of encounter, especially for a party that is presumably 14th level or less.

 

[Asisreo]

Well, if it works out, great. It seems like a high cognitive-load sort of encounter, especially for a party that is presumably 14th level or less.

Oh no, They'll be level 17 running this dungeon. It should require some thinking but their available resources should let them succeed quite handily.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Oh no, They'll be level 17 running this dungeon. It should require some thinking but their available resources should let them succeed quite handily.

Did you mean an ancient black dragon, then? Because a 17th-level party could likely take out an adult dragon in one round.

 

[Xetheral]

Challenging high level encounters have never been a challenge to me. There is always something with more powers and hit points etc. What is challenging to me is plot.

How to make an interesting high-level campaign. How do you get the players interested in something greater than themselves? Then how to turn that into a campaign?

I'm struggling with this now. My party is finishing up Divine Contention and they will probably be 11th level. I will have some leads with Ebondeath, the Cassalanters, and Xanathar and the Undermountain. But since the party wants to play to 20th level, I'm wondering just how much that is going to take.

I find that the key to a high-level campaign is to make sure that the players feel, through-and-through, that their characters are actually crazy powerful. The best way to do this isn't to throw them up against equally powerful foes repeatedly, it's to let them curb-stomp lesser foes repeatedly, and only on rare occasion put them up against something that's challenging to defeat in combat.

Yes, following this advice means that most combats aren't tactically challenging--they're just a chance for the PCs to show off how far they've come. But the campaign itself can still be challenging if the PCs have to make hard choices about which conflicts to win. The key here is plot-weaving: have multiple, mutually exclusive priorities demanding the PC's attention, including both the PCs' own goals and external threats and opportunities. So, for example, the PCs might be simultaneously faced with:

• Intel that an old enemy is sneaking spies into the staff of the PC's stronghold, that needs to be addressed without revealing the source of the intel.
• Reports of an adult dragon raiding villages to the north.
• An invitation from the king to attend a formal ball at the capital.
• A PC planning to start a side quest to retrieve a rare component for enchanting a magic item.
• Learning that a powerful visitor from another plane is briefly visiting the material, presenting an opportunity to network.
• A request for aid from old allies that are fighting a defensive war.
• Rumors of a spreading, subversive cult engaged in demon worship.

Sure, 20th level PCs can easily and quickly deal with any of these threats--none of them is even a minor challenge. But dealing with all of them at the same time is trickier. Either the PCs pick and choose which prioirties to address in a timely fashion, or maybe they get clever and find a way to stretch their resources.

Dealing with half a dozen minor threats/goals scattered geographically, only to teleport into the capital, wash off the blood, and attend the formal ball the same evening is Epic. And if the party can't find a way to simultaneously address every plotline, some of them will have immediate consequences (e.g. loss of tax revenue from northern villages, loss of reputation from failing to help allies, delays in the PCs' projects, an insulted king, etc.) or grow more potent over time (e.g. stamping out a cult that now enjoys popular support, sabotage from agents-in-place, etc.).

While you also don't want to overdo the number of simultaneous plots, it makes sense that, as high-level characters, NPCs will be coming to the PCs for help, or that the PCs' extensive network of contacts will keep them up to date on a wide range of topics. To make it more realistic and avoid turning into a superhero-themed game, make sure some of the competing plotlines are opportunities for the PCs, rather than threats or calls for aid.

 

[Asisreo]

Did you mean an ancient black dragon, then? Because a 17th-level party could likely take out an adult dragon in one round.

I do not, actually.

Remember those Black Puddings under the Dragon's command? I'm still tweaking the exact details but the puddings will be on the ceiling of the lair and will drop down and attack the party during the fight.

I'm thinking roughly 5 black puddings alongside the dragon to serve as minions. Plus however many are just in the lair to drop down from. Of course, there's other monsters in the cave than the black pudding, but the black pudding are specifically controlled by the Adult Black Dragon.

I generally avoid having only one enemy, even as a boss. Aside from the difficulty, things easily begin to stale.

 

[fearsomepirate]

You'll need to buff their to-hit. They show up late in OoTA and basically do nothing. The key thing here is to not let the party get in a full round of actions against the dragon in the first round, or it's over before it starts.

 

[Asisreo]

You'll need to buff their to-hit. They show up late in OoTA and basically do nothing. The key thing here is to not let the party get in a full round of actions against the dragon in the first round, or it's over before it starts.

It is what it is. The dragon won't be asleep and they have Blindsight so if they manage to get a good sneak up on them it will be good because they thought ahead to get an advantage.

An acid lake won't be too far from it anyways so it can always use its wing attack to move away after the first hit and its lair actions helps keep things from being too smooth.

Or it gets obliterated round 1 because of something unexpected. It happens but that's the interesting part of high level play anyways. I'm not going to punish genuinely good strategy and teamwork since that's the most important and satisfying parts of D&D combat anyways.

I'm sure he's safe for the first round or so, though. If alot of pudding gets the jump on a party member, it could easily swing the other way into an easy kill setup.

If there seems to be a glaring weakness in the fight, though, like something incredibly obvious and boring, I'd be alright to hear it.

 

[LordEntrails]

Plot momentum for the campaign can be my biggest struggle. The solution for me has been lots more politics.

The key here is plot-weaving: have multiple, mutually exclusive priorities demanding the PC's attention, including both the PCs' own goals and external threats and opportunities.

Thanks to both of you for your thoughts.

Politics is something I've never been good at. Real-life or in gaming Multiple plots is something I usually do. I've always tried to keep the story open ended and let the characters drive it through meaningful choices. Going to have to think more on all of this.

 

[tetrasodium]

Thanks to both of you for your thoughts.

Politics is something I've never been good at. Real-life or in gaming Multiple plots is something I usually do. I've always tried to keep the story open ended and let the characters drive it through meaningful choices. Going to have to think more on all of this.

Fate can be a huge help to you as a GM trying to get those plates on sticks so they can be spun using things like aspects/high concept/trouble/etc & the fractal. dresden files rpg being rather structured around the idea of a "city" provides a lot of useful specializations towards that end. dfrpg is an earlier version of fate but you can download fate core for free. Avoid fate accelerated as the simplification makes it much harder to learn with for various reasons.