Let's Talk About Character Resources To Power Abilities

[Bill Zebub]

I don't see how this is the "worst outcome". The party being killed is the worst outcome. If you are save and still had ressources to spare this means your party did greaa!

I 'm sure we we could all keep upping the ante on "worst outcome". You and all your gaming friends vaporized in a drone strike, because your failure to use your special ability made the session run late?

But I meant 'worst outcome' in the sense of the kinds of resource allocation decisions that are incentivized.

Of course one can always try to improve existing mechanics. I see several possibilities to have less of this "feel bad" moment:

• Reward bonus XP to the party at the end of the day based on the number of unused ressources (if they had over X fights). (People do a mental fight or a fight in their dream, thinking/simulating how they could win with their unspent ressources).
• Abilities get empowered for the next encounter day if they were not used (but you lose this empowerment if you dont use it), this way you are more likely to alternate.
• Have an adventure day only end after all ressources are used up, so its a challenge to do as many encounters as possible before resting.
• Just in general have many situational powers (everyone), so its normal to not use all abilities, but grant bonus XP if they can be used efficiently (Gloomhaven bg does this!)

Or....don't have abilities based on a resources-per-day model.

 

[RenleyRenfield]

I will never find it less odd that 99% of all RPG talk is really just "Wargaming". So much fuss over combat, healing, attacks, etc etc.

It would be fun to see some kinda chart that showed just how much time was spent in combat.

Since I don't play D&D (or any such wargame), I have no basis for what is 'normal'. In Vampire, and Apocalypse World, and Cypher, and Nephilim, and Star Wars, and Legend of the 5 rings, and well... everything I play: combat is just another drama scene and there are no wargaming elements at all. To even spend 1 second worrying about party kill or character death from stray enemy attack is such a foreign concept.

Long rest? hit points? health potion? wat iz? why waste time discussing warhammer 40k so much ;p

ok ok kidding aside. How much does things like character resources to power abilities actually - like for really for good - how much does it affect the game you most regularly play?

 

[Tigris]

I 'm sure we we could all keep upping the ante on "worst outcome". You and all your gaming friends vaporized in a drone strike, because your failure to use your special ability made the session run late?

But I meant 'worst outcome' in the sense of the kinds of resource allocation decisions that are incentivized.

Well the party being killed because it misses a ressource is exactly the opposite to your the party survives the day with ressources left, so its a lot more directly connected than the drone strike.

If you have ressources left at the end of a day you did good! When you have used ressources unnecessarily and then died you did bad.

The problem here is only that some people feel bad with the good result, so thats why we could add mechanics to change that.

Or....don't have abilities based on a resources-per-day model.

But this limits the design space extremly. Also makes different combats/encounters more similar, since you can do exactly the same in every encounter. (Ok you can still have other limited ressources not just encounter ones, but they are more rare and have other problems as well).


In general you have around 5 different ressource timings:

• Conditional temporary ressources you only have for a fraction of an encounter
  • Like "if X happens you get Y, you lose Y after 1 turn and can use it for Z" (Temp HP (with self damage as option) is the most common)
    • Problem: Is more like just a trigger than an actual ressource "if X you can do Y" and can feel like "not a choice" because you "must use it else its lost"
• Per encounter ressources
  • Encounter attacks, but also PF2 focus points and even ones which build up like Draw Steel
    • Problem can make encounters feel more the same, since they repeat each encounter. (Even worse if its points you can use to spam the same ability several times instead of once per encounter unique abilities)
• Per Real Life Time ressources
  • Like per session, or once per hour etc.
    • Hard to balance since it depends a lot on party and GM on how long things take, thus normally only used for small things like a single reroll. And can become annoying to track / put you out of the game.
• Per X encounter ressources
  • Long Rests, 5E short rests, all X days, Once per level etc.
    • A bit annoying to balance because number of encounters can varry, but have a huge potential for different ressource systems.
• Just once ressourves
  • Healing potions, scrolls, cyphers, "can only use once" spells etc.
    • Have the hoarding problems, that people dont want to use them at all because they might later need them even more.

I will never find it less odd that 99% of all RPG talk is really just "Wargaming". So much fuss over combat, healing, attacks, etc etc.

It would be fun to see some kinda chart that showed just how much time was spent in combat.

Since I don't play D&D (or any such wargame), I have no basis for what is 'normal'. In Vampire, and Apocalypse World, and Cypher, and Nephilim, and Star Wars, and Legend of the 5 rings, and well... everything I play: combat is just another drama scene and there are no wargaming elements at all. To even spend 1 second worrying about party kill or character death from stray enemy attack is such a foreign concept.

Long rest? hit points? health potion? wat iz? why waste time discussing warhammer 40k so much ;p

Because that is a big part of the game side, and where one applies gamedesign. Also its the one part where one needs good rules, for the RP part "tell what your character wants to do, GM says if it does not work" is enough to make it work.


Its much harder to have a good combat with bad combat rules, than it is to have good roleplay with no roleplay rules (or bad roleplay rules). We had cool roleplay moments in boardgames with 0 roleplay rules.

ok ok kidding aside. How much does things like character resources to power abilities actually - like for really for good - how much does it affect the game you most regularly play?

It is one of the main driving forces of the D&D games I played. If I would not have ressources, I would not play it for more than a 1 shot. Most of the cool moments happening, and we remembering, had ressources involved. These moments are often remembered because yes they were lucky, or clever, or funny, but also because they are rare because of ressources, these are special moments.

 

[Reynard]

I will never find it less odd that 99% of all RPG talk is really just "Wargaming". So much fuss over combat, healing, attacks, etc etc.

It would be fun to see some kinda chart that showed just how much time was spent in combat.

Since I don't play D&D (or any such wargame), I have no basis for what is 'normal'. In Vampire, and Apocalypse World, and Cypher, and Nephilim, and Star Wars, and Legend of the 5 rings, and well... everything I play: combat is just another drama scene and there are no wargaming elements at all. To even spend 1 second worrying about party kill or character death from stray enemy attack is such a foreign concept.

Long rest? hit points? health potion? wat iz? why waste time discussing warhammer 40k so much ;p

It is cool that you have a playstyle you prefer and have found games that match that playstyle.

Denigrating other playstyles is not as cool.

ok ok kidding aside. How much does things like character resources to power abilities actually - like for really for good - how much does it affect the game you most regularly play?

Most of them, I think. I play D&D, Daggerheart, Shadowdark and Savage Worlds a lot, and those use points or other limited resources to power abilties.

 

[Scribe]

ok ok kidding aside. How much does things like character resources to power abilities actually - like for really for good - how much does it affect the game you most regularly play?

It's core to many classes in Shadowdark, so...often.

 

[RenleyRenfield]

Because that is a big part of the game side, and where one applies gamedesign. Also its the one part where one needs good rules, for the RP part "tell what your character wants to do, GM says if it does not work" is enough to make it work.


Its much harder to have a good combat with bad combat rules, than it is to have good roleplay with no roleplay rules (or bad roleplay rules). We had cool roleplay moments in boardgames with 0 roleplay rules.

I don't think I could have a more different personal experience. Which is not to invalidate yours in any way. I am mostly just offering up perspective from my odd world.

I can't emphasize how bad gaming was before PBTA - for me. How utterly miserable combat was, and how very much no-fun rulings of GMs were.

For me, gaming has gone from being untenable to being exceptional - all because of the removal of combat as "the game side".

But again, to make it abundantly clear - my way is not "the way" all must follow. I am just always curious as to what others do.

And where my questions are here: which I still don't think are answered by anyone = why so much heartache over this part of the game? (if indeed that is the fun 'side game side' that people want. Because from outside looking in - all I see is heartache and the drive to find the 'fix' for it....

 

[Scribe]

why so much heartache over this part of the game? (if indeed that is the fun 'side game side' that people want. Because from outside looking in - all I see is heartache and the drive to find the 'fix' for it....

Because everyone has their own line in the sand for mow much structure, or complexity is too much, not enough, or just right.

Many people expect or desire a bit of dice rolling for the combat portion.

 

[Campbell]

Many games give resources on a schedule and then require the GM to frame situations that put pressure on your resources within that schedule. Gameplay than becomes more about rationing than risks. I personally believe that puts undo weight on the GM and usually results in us tracking resources that seldom actually matter.

What I love about games like Draw Steel, most 2d20 games, Blades in the Dark, Marvel Heroic and the way Willpower and Vitae work in Vampire - The Requiem (both editions) is that pressure is put on your resources simply as part of playing the game. Players and GMs don't have to put special effort into the resource economy or frame to it. Resource use and recovery become about moment-to-moment choices and almost always matters because the ways you recover and/or gain resources come to down risks you are willing to take.

 

[Tigris]

I don't think I could have a more different personal experience. Which is not to invalidate yours in any way. I am mostly just offering up perspective from my odd world.

I can't emphasize how bad gaming was before PBTA - for me. How utterly miserable combat was, and how very much no-fun rulings of GMs were.

For me, gaming has gone from being untenable to being exceptional - all because of the removal of combat as "the game side".

But again, to make it abundantly clear - my way is not "the way" all must follow. I am just always curious as to what others do.

And where my questions are here: which I still don't think are answered by anyone = why so much heartache over this part of the game? (if indeed that is the fun 'side game side' that people want. Because from outside looking in - all I see is heartache and the drive to find the 'fix' for it....

Did I ask for your experience or perspective? I think its rude to force your experience on people who have not asked about it. I am in this thread because I want discuss about different ressource systems in RPGs and nothing else. (Also if something is miserable just dont do it. "Oh the thing I decided to do completly on my own was not fun in the past").


Also why do you post in a thread about discussing ressources, if you dont like ressources to begin with?

And about why ressources are important?

Because ressource management is important in games and we talk about rpGames. For most games ressources are an essential part how ressources are handled can change a good game into a bad game and vice versa. Imagine poker, but everyone has an infinite amount of chips, how much worse would poker be?


The headache is that many games just handle ressource systems badly, often because the rpg designers dont have enough understanding/experience of game design and ressources. Just because people complain about badly made shoes does not mean they want to walk barefooted.

 

[RenleyRenfield]

The headache is that many games just handle ressource systems badly, often because the rpg designers dont have enough understanding/experience of game design and ressources. Just because people complain about badly made shoes does not mean they want to walk barefooted.

No worries. Let me refocus then.
This above is that part that I curious about. Which games do you play often that do resources badly? There is much talk in this thread about what people like and don't like, so that is valid to consider - it can give a perspective on how a player defines bad. And if we talk about what seems to need constant correction, it is just as valid to ask "are we correcting something we should actually consider removing?" So instead of complaining I am offering up ideas and questions of "ok, so what are we going for here, and why is it not working for game X, or person Y?"