D&D 5E Lets Talk Spells

[Sadrik]

Ok so I am going to hit on several important points on where spells are and then perhaps give some opinions on how to fix, or later in the thread. A lot of this stuff feels like moving targets but...

Saves
Many spells utilize saves (duh). The saves are often based on 10+magic stat, but in some cases they are skill or ability checks. For instance, disguise spell allows a wisdom check to pierce the illusion. If it is a spot check, that should be accounted for, if it is a search check that should be accounted for, if it is a disbelieve check that should be accounted for. These should be looked at very carefully and made to line up in sync. One other save issue is the differences between the saves makes no sense and is completely arbitrary. Real work and hard decisions need to be made in this arena. Example dominate person is CHA but command is WIS. Very arbitrary. Finally, save negates should be save mitigates. Perhaps the creature, shrugs it off but they may still be dazzled for one round after color spray (-1 to hit), something needs to happen. Sleep spell might make the target drowsy for an instant. If nothing else, flavor text should be added to describe what happens when a save is made, if not have some mechanical effect. All damage spells are save or mitigate, so should non-damage spells.

HP Thresholds
Honestly these stink. The mechanic is trying to model more powerful creatures are immune to lower level spell effects but does not actually accomplish what it is trying to model. Some creatures have low HP due to poor rolling of HD and they are now affected by magic that they should otherwise ignore. On the opposite a creature with a very high CON score can become all but immune to these types of spells coupled with a few good HD rolls. Another issue is the idea that the spell has no effect. The creature who has more HP effectively has 100% SR vs. that effect. A nicer way to handle this would be to limit duration dramatically, or have a secondary lesser effect occur. As written it does not sit well with me. Surely another mechanic can be put in place to model this better.

Scaling
So most spells do not scale automatically anymore. They often require the caster to use a higher level slot to get a more potent effect from a spell. This is an awesome addition to the spell system and I wholeheartedly support this. There are several spells though that still scale and they just happen to be some very egregious ones. Polymorph scales with the HD of the caster. Nix that instantly please. Another issue is that there are some spells that can be turned into scalable spells that are not such as dispel magic. Lastly, their are several spells which have a "mass" version of them this seems like an excellent way to scale up spells through memorizing them at a higher level, affect more targets. try and remove the, mass versions and make that a scalable feature through using a higher level spell slot.

Rituals
Rituals are an excellent addition. I only bring this up because I would like to see more of them.

Concentration
Concentration is an excellent mechanic, fewer ongoing buffs will make things much better. That said, buffs need to scale up by memorizing them in higher spell slots. Bless and prayer spells for instance could be better versions of each other and could basically be scalable versions of each other, I dont want to see a zillion buff spells that are basically the same spell but have a different names and perhaps tweak one or two things.

Spell levels
Some spells should be re-leveled. Plain and simple. Sleep, rather than making the sleep effect be super crappy. Make it a higher level effect. Or make it a scalable spell, perhaps the 9th level version is very powerful. A close eye on some of the spell levels because some of the lower level spells are more powerful than the high level spells. Trap the soul, vs. power word kill? I am of the opinion that we do not need 10 spell levels (0-9) but instead I would like to see 8 (0-7). I would only merge high level spells, 6-7 level spells could become 6th and 8-9 level spells could become 7th. This would clearly delineate higher level spells in to appropriate levels. Right now, it is pretty arbitrary where spells go. Is that a 6th or 7th level spell? IDK, arbitrary assignment.

Spell schools
The spell school assignments are pretty arbitrary. They have through the editions of D&D gone through lots of changes. Spells used to have more than one school assigned to them in 1e and 2e. Some spells have been split by effect in the past and then, some have been split by how it affects the battle field. Example prismatic spray, wall, and sphere. One would think they would be in the same school but they are not. Since one shoots the prismatic stuff it is evocation, since one creates a wall with the stuff it is conjuration, and since one creates a protective barrier it is abjuration. I would like to see the schools assigned less by effect and more by substance. For instance these were once upon a time considered illusionist spells, color spray is illusion, why not include these again as the upper limits on illusion powers. Healing used to be Necromancy now it is conjuration, I think it should be abjuration. What buff is better than healing? Point is the schools could change to a better defined way of looking at them.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

Most of these are rather good callouts. I should point out that if they made absolutely no changes, I would still like the magic system very much, but there is still room for improvement.

Metamagic being built into the individual spells is a fantastic innovation, and I agree that I want to see it embraced further. Mass spells are a prime candidate, as well as some of the others you've mentioned. I sincerely hope that the next pass on spells does some more consolidation and provides more options for spells to scale.

I agree that the required saves feel too arbitrary, and I'd like to see this nailed down better, with a little more love for Intelligence Saves. I still think Illusions are a good category, with a caveat. Most animals have a low intelligence score, and as a rule should be more susceptible to illusions. That said, many beasts rely on scent and other forms of perception. This should allow them to disbelieve an illusion, but it should cause them confusion or affect their behavior.

Lastly, on hit point thresholds, I like spells that effect current hit points. Spells like this become finishing moves. The party weakens an enemy, then the Wizard casts sleep. Are there still any spells that effect total hit points?

 

[n00bdragon]

These are all good points but there's a major problem on the road to fixing them: Sacred Cows.

Sleep is a 1st level spell because it's always been a 1st level spell. If sleep isn't a 1st level spell you'll have people crawling out of the woodwork in inchoate rage. Every single one of these points can be argued (poorly) that they are what makes D&D spellcasting what it is (as if that were something to envy).

The second problem is why stop there? If you're going to do this slaughter a few cows why not just slaughter them all? Dump the entire spell system in the rubbish and start over with something that makes sense, is easy to explain, doesn't make some arbitrary characters wildly more complex than others, and doesn't violate balance like a schoolgirl in a tentacle monster convention.

The old "copy and paste vancian spellcasting system + spells from previous edition and make a few adjustments" has gone through three iterations now (1e -> 2e -> 3e -> 5e) and the resulting frankenstein has only gotten uglier and more unwieldy and difficult to work with. When 5e first came out I had hoped that the spellcasting features of the classes who had them were, much like 99% of the material in the first packet that was a literal copy/paste of older material, simply a stand in while they worked on other things. I'm less optimistic about that happening a year later but it's still something I feel they need to tackle. Without a ground up overhaul of magic in general I can't really take 5e seriously as a game I might buy.

 

[Szatany]

I think mass spells could be resolved in another way than scalable spells are done. There could be mass keyword with spells that can have mass versions. In the rules for spellcasting there would be an explanation of this keyword, to something like:
Mass - any spell with this keyword can be cast on more than one target, by spending higher level slots. For each level added, double number of possible targets.
Come to think of it, there could be other keyword doing similar things. Keywords like hastened, extended, prolonged, undispellable, etc.

Variant 2, and this one involves rules for metamagic. Same as above, but activating keyword is only possible if you have an appropriate metamagic feat. So with a mass metamagic feat a wizard could cast any spells he knows with mass keyword as mass versions, at the cost of higher level of course.

 

[Szatany]

Spell schools
The spell school assignments are pretty arbitrary.

Do we even need them? Are they just for flavor or are there other rules in the game that reference them.

 

[Kobold Stew]

The biggest issue for spells for me was discussed in this thread.

Targeted spells (such as the Cleric's Lance of Faith) do not require rolls-to-hit (by the player), but require a save-to-avoid (by the target). I get that it means it can be a save based on any of a number of abilities, but in the name of fun, it takes away the chance for the spellcaster to hit an armour class. I'd like two changes:

1. Go back to roll-to-hit, for the majority of these spells (if not all). Keep the players active in the game.

2. Make the attack roll a ranged attack not a magic attack (and so based on Dex rather than the Spellcasting stat). This makes better conceptual sense (YMMV) and means casters need more than a single ability (if they pursue this route). Tied to this, I would not object to a feat that let a cater use their casting ability in lieu of dex for such an attack.

 

[zoroaster100]

I think the main problem with spell saves is that it looks like it will be too difficult for monsters or characters to make saves, especially at mid to high levels of play. One thing that might help is to go back to three saves (Ref/Fort/Will) and granting the higher of each of two ability scores for each, as in third and fourth edition D&D (Dex or Int for Ref, Con or Str for Fort, Cha or Wis for Will). But they will probably need to boost saves even a bit more by a couple of points somehow.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

I think mass spells could be resolved in another way than scalable spells are done. There could be mass keyword with spells that can have mass versions. In the rules for spellcasting there would be an explanation of this keyword, to something like:
Mass - any spell with this keyword can be cast on more than one target, by spending higher level slots. For each level added, double number of possible targets.
Come to think of it, there could be other keyword doing similar things. Keywords like hastened, extended, prolonged, undispellable, etc.

Variant 2, and this one involves rules for metamagic. Same as above, but activating keyword is only possible if you have an appropriate metamagic feat. So with a mass metamagic feat a wizard could cast any spells he knows with mass keyword as mass versions, at the cost of higher level of course.

While I definitely want to stay away from variant 2, your first idea could work. Still, I kind of like having the metamagic options described with the spell, even if it requires repetition. Other than that, I agree that attaching all metamagic effects directly to the spell is the correct method.

 

[RangerWickett]

I like HP Thresholds in concept, but for them to work, everyone of level X needs to have Y hit points. And I'm fine with that. Let all 10th level PCs have 50 HP. All CR 10 monsters have 50 HP. If the monster is a 'solo,' then it'd have a multiple of the normal HP at that level.

Of course, that's too weird, and so it'd never fly. But the narrative conceit that enemies and heroes have plot immunity until sufficient heroic combat has occurred needs to be modeled. One-hit takedown effects, magical or otherwise, are lame.

 

[Wulfgar76]

Spell Attack Rolls
I absolutely agree that single-target, weapon-like spells (mostly rays and touch spells) NEED to go back to being attack-roll based. It's more fun for the player, has the possibility of critting, cuts down on the number of saves the DM needs to make, and most importantly is simulationist - armor and shield HELP you resist things like firey rays and shocking grasps.

Saves
Charisma and Intelligence saves are sorely underepresented. Int saves for Illusions, and Cha saves for charms and compulsions, would be a good starting point to increase the relevance and frequency of these saves.

HP Thresholds
I think in the absence of a better mechanic they work fine. However I really like the 'two strikes you're out' method as seen in the spell Stone to Flesh. In other words, the first failed save results in a round off being 'hindered' and the second save seals the deal with a permanent negative effect.

Scaling
The built in metamagic scaling is brilliant. I hope it stays.

Rituals
I would like to see material components for the ritual versions of the spells. Unusual and costly material components are a good way to balance (ritual) spells and immersive at the same time.

Concentration
Excellent mechanic. Buff stacking is bad.

Spell Levels
I agree that many spells need to be re-leveled. Making Gust of Wind a 1st level spell was a good start. Many spells are too weak for their level. A few seem too good.