Level 20 Capstone Abilities

[WaywardWaffle]

[MENTION=6802518]WaywardWaffle[/MENTION]

1) I know that D&D is designed to have X encounters between rests. However, I think that after a certain point, that just doesn't make sense. From a game standpoint, you just aren't going to be encountering threats that often because creatures of that power level should not be that prevalent. At least from my thinking. Therefore, it's less of a big deal for abilities to recharge that quickly. But also, once again, at this level the game changes. You are one in a billion. You are nearly peerless in your skill. Any threats you face are much more likely to be far reaching in impact and effect.

Well not every fight is a boss fight right? You go through X number of diabolical minions before you battle with the big boss. Every fight isn't CR 20.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

True, not every fight is a boss fight. But then again, I get a sense that at that level of play, your combats need to have meaning. I don't like to have players grind through battles just because the rules are made to figure that you have so many encounters between rests, simply because to me that doesn't seem organic. It also places so much more focus on combat rather than the other kinds of encounters and challenges that one might have. In addition, it requires more book-keeping in between sessions, because realistically in a normal D&D session, you won't get through more than 2... maybe 3 encounters. Based on your statement above with 6 encounters and 2 short rests, a character will have access to their full compliment of abilities once every 2-4 sessions. That just doesn't seem fun to me, both as a player or a DM. Every once in a while I might structure a few encounters to go iron man style where they have to surpass their limits and exhaust their resources. But realistically, I just don't see every string of encounters working out in such a way.

But that's my play style. Admittedly, that doesn't work for everyone and isn't everyone's cup of tea.

EDIT: In which case, as you seem to have indicated, hopefully my train of thought can inspire you to edit or adjust these capstone abilities to work for that style of play.

 

[WaywardWaffle]

Right of course, all I mean is that the rest of the game is built around that set up, so when you make an ability it needs to follow that set up as well or else it unbalances the whole game.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

I disagree. Level 20 is inherently the threshold of entering a new type of game. It's called a capstone ability for a reason. Level 20, in a sense, breaks it's own game. Therefore, from my perspective, it should be treated a bit differently.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

First, capstone abilities restoring on a short rest is too strong. Think about the adventuring day that Dnd is based around: 2 encounters, short rest, 2 encounters, short rest, 2 encounters, Long Rest. Being able to obliterate monsters with a power of the strength that capstone abilities are every other encounter would be way too powerful. I don’t hate the idea but that’d be the kind of thing that would appear in Epic levels.

I've already kind of addressed this. As far as I'm concerned, level 20 is epic.

Barbarian: Only problem I have with your edition on this is that the reaction should be once per short rest. Otherwise the Barbarian could be theoretically invincible by using their reaction every turn to ignore all damage on a hit. Second keep in mind the Bear totem warrior’s Rage resistance extends to all damage types except psychic, so this would need to be carefully worked to include that.

You only get one reaction per round, so at most this would allow a barbarian to negate one attack a round. But as a barbarian on the front lines, he is likely to be drawing more attacks per round. In addition, this ability is likely only going to affect weapon attacks, given it is limited to damage caused by piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning.

Besides, at level 5, the rogue gets to use his reaction to halve damage from an attack. Doesn't seem like a great leap for a level 20 character to negate the full damage from one attack.

Bard: Changing the 3d6 is WAY too strong. Think of the averages: 1d12 average is rounded up 7. 3d6 is rounded up 11. That is such a crazy bump up. Also max would be 18, which yes is rare but an 18 bonus is a guaranteed success on almost any roll. My solution to this is to drop it to 2d6, this way you still have a 2 minimum which is better than the terrifying 1 minimum, and is also equal to ½ cover which is at the very least a nice buff based on an established ruling. The average stays as 7, with a more consistent good increase, but less common max rolls, which is something you should keep in mind in this change.

Second, one commenter wrote that the Bard should get an inspiration at 0 if they start their turn, I agree with that if only to keep it consistent with your Sorcerer change. A level 20 bard is basically an unending fountain of lore and stories and entertainment, there’s no reason they couldn’t inspire effectively indefinitely.

The bard is tricky. I was operating off the false assumption that bardic inspiration refills after a long rest. Forgot that by level 5 it refills after a short rest.

Perhaps 2d6 bardic inspiration and endless font similar to the sorcerer ability would be a good call.

Cleric: I don’t like this one very much for two reasons. First being that 1 week is a measurement that isn’t realllllyyy used in 5e. It’s not bad but I think just slapping it to long rest would be easier for players and DM’s to keep track of. Second is that it’s too vague. The player can ask a favour and the God listens, great, I wish the big bad was dead, I wish I had an infinite amount of money, etc. It would end up forcing DMs to make calls that not all DMs are in the position to make, it could upset players, it could annoy groups that aren’t particularly close, it’s too easy to abuse. This ability should be better explained, maybe the Cleric can cast the Wish spell once per day. The Wish spell isn’t a spell on the Cleric’s spell list, so this work’s fine, plus once per day is of course in line with Spell Slot regen on a long rest, while keeping the Wizard’s Arcane Regeneration as a unique way to keep those level 9 spells going. The problem with this is that it makes the Wizard learning Wish not unique anymore, which is of course very deliberately done by WotC, and second makes it so the Cleric can cast basically any spell of level 8 and lower which may cause problems with spell lists. Personally I think the Cleric should get some special ability based on their domain, like how the Paladin does. I don’t mind Divine Intervention on its own, but it shouldn’t automatically succeed, and removing the auto succeed at level 20 allows you to put in a fun unique level 20 feature.

I see your points and I don't disagree. It is a vague power, and the reset time is pretty long. But the way I interpret it is similarly to your understanding that the cleric effectively gets wish. However, unlike the wizard using wish, it doesn't carry the same drawbacks. Wish is a pretty dangerous spell for a wizard to use if he tries to do anything other than reproduce the effects of another spell, and each time using it to do anything other than reproduce another spell carries the potential to never be able to cast it again.

Given this, it is a powerful ability. But I can see adding something that can be done more regularly. I don't see giving Divine Intervention to clerics more often than once a week, because honestly, I'm sure whatever deity your cleric worships is going to get tired of answering these calls all the time.

And also, let's not forget the role play potential in using this ability. You can have personal interactions and conversations with a deity at this point. You could effectively become personal friends with Vecna, Orcus, Boccob, or Pelor. You can pick your god's brain, get access to their powers for a time, your imagination is the literal limit to what this power could do. Well, imagination and your DM.

Fighter: The warlock blast getting 4th at level 17 is a great comparison for this. My solution is about the same as yours, indomitable being per short rest up to a max of 2 at level 17, as well as getting your fourth Attack at level 17. I think your Fighting Style Mastery solution is perfect, it’s exactly what a level 20 Fighter would be. Though remember you can get multiple fighting styles so in the ability it would say choose one.

I'm glad we see eye to eye on this one. ^_^ I thought I specified that this ability only gives you the benefit of one of your fighting styles. I will reread it later and double check the wording is sufficient for my intention.

Bleeding Wound:The problem I have with this one is simply that it was in the play test packages and they removed it for a good reason, it just isn’t fun or interesting. It gives more damage but that damage happens later. So it adds some unnecessary book keeping for a smidgen more damage. I think you should split up Dueling fighting style’s and the Close Quarter Shooter’s fighting style capstone.

I really struggled with this one. I agree that there should be unique options for each style, but I just couldn't think of anything.

Here are my ideas:

Brutal Shot: requires Close Quarters Shooter: When you hit a creature within 30ft with a ranged weapon attack, that creature cannot make opportunity attacks against you until the end of your turn.
The reasoning behind this one is obvious, close range shooter still needs to get around and a ranged weapon isn’t the best way to do it, this is directly taken from the Swashbuckler’s Fancy Footwork, and it works great here.

I think I see where you're going with this, but when compared to Peerless Archer, it seems weak. But when I think of Close-Quarters shooter, I think of someone that can pull off trick shots and things. So maybe something that allows you to knock an enemy prone, pin someone to a wall, disarm them, something like that. But then, at the same time, that has the potential to get messy and step on the Battlemaster abilities.

Master Duelist: requires dueling fighting style: +2 to Attack rolls when you are using one weapon and nothing else

Reasoning behind this one is also very simple, but honestly doesn’t feel like enough to me. Maybe add something like when you hit with a weapon attack their speed drops to zero? Something about disarming? Lots of options for this, but it needs its own Supreme Fighting Style at the very least.

I agree it needs its own style, but coming up with ideas that put it on par with the other fighting styles, as well as the other capstone abilities is tricky.

Ultimate Defense: I have no problem with this one, AC is a tricky number to fiddle with, this doesn’t affect people’s ability to hit you, only how much damage they do. Just keep in mind how this may coordinate with the Heavy Armor Master feat.

Personally if someone had both, I would rule that you get the resistance and then 3 damage removed from that. I don't wanna penalize someone for taking a feat.

Brutal Weapon Fighting: same thing here, nice smooth upgrade for the fighting style.

Thank you. ^_^

Supreme Mariner: The indefinite breath holding is too magical, it’s important to note that Martial classes don’t often get magical effects, they get improved physical effects and use incentive rather than force. There’s no real reason for that, but maybe just double the length you can hold your breath, it’s still very impressive and works with the doubling of climb/swim speed. I don’t think +1 AC needs to be upgraded at all. Though now that I think about it this feature could simply remove the Heavy Armor limitation, but many people don’t use it because they tend to have higher dexterity so maybe not, that’d need some careful fiddling.

This one was a challenge because it was so different from other fighting styles. Personally, I think you get to a point where the abilities of martial skill and magic become indistinguishable, so I don't have a problem with the holding breath seeming to be on the verge of magical.

Terrible Onslaught: The first part of this is fine, but the second part is not. What if someone has picked the Sentinal Feat? It makes that feat useless because they get the ability from this. I’d consider something along these lines instead

”Opportunity attacks never require you to use your reaction, allowing you to benefit from your Tunnel Fighter ability without entering a defensive stance as a bonus action. In addition, when a creature within 5ft of you makes a weapon attack against any creature that is not you, you may use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against the creature."

This way it furthers the fantasy of a master of enclosed spaces, able to take every opportunity to slam down another attack. Not sure if it should use the reaction or be part of the tunnel fighter stance (which no longer takes a bonus action so… basically all the time). This also takes one ability from the Sentinel feature so I’m not ultra into this, but there’s ways I think to implement this so it doesn’t interfere, such as giving a second attack like “If you already have this ability from the Sentinal feat, you can make two attacks instead of one.” compared to the attack on a disengage which is exclusive to Sentinel, and adding a second attack to a creature that disengages and tries to run isn’t as exciting or used as often.

Personally, I see Terrible Onslaught and Sentinel as very synergistic. Yes, the fighting style effectively takes over the second part of the Sentinel feat, as it does what Sentinel does only better.

However, being able to stop people in their tracks with the AoOs is not something Terrible Onslaught does, but Sentinel does, and that is a potentially cool thing to witness.

Then, on top of that, Sentinel gives you a new way to get an AoO. Since Terrible Onslaught gives you unlimited AoOs in a round, a fighter with Terrible Onslaught and Sentinel would easily have the most attacks allowed in a round.

Two-Weapon Master: I’m not fond of this one for the sole reason that offhand weapons are generally lighter and weaker than the main hand, so an extra attack there is not adding a whole lot, it doesn’t compare well to the increase of the other supreme fighting styles and doesn’t feel like a capstone ability. Secondly, Extra Attack does not mention that it has to be a Main Hand weapon, you CAN make extra attacks with an off-hand weapon already. This is my idea for it:

Two Weapon Coordination: requires two weapon fighting fighting style: When you hit with your main hand weapon, you automatically hit with your off hand weapon if you choose to make an offhand attack.
This is kind of a band aid, I’m not personally fond of auto hit attacks, but it’s a natural progression from the damage onto the offhand weapon. I was considering giving advantage on an offhand attack if you hit with the main hand but that doesn’t feel strong enough. Either works though, and the advantage would be more in line with other features in the game.

I see where you're going with that. Here's my thoughts. Terrible Onslaught (especially with Sentinel) is going to have the highest potential for number of attacks in a round, but this is dependent on how the opponents may attempt to move around the battlefield. Two-Weapon Master would have the most number of attacks consistently, since they would be able to make 6 attacks in a round every round. In addition, off-hand weapons do not have to be weaker. I don't see any fighter going this route without also taking dual-wielder. But even if they did, imagine a champion that crits on an 18-20 with 6 attacks in a round. Light weapon or not, the increased potential for generating a crit is worth the price of admission in my opinion.

But I suppose one way to do it is to say when you are wielding two weapons, you can make 5 attacks when you use the attack action. Then you still have the option for the bonus action attack.

Monk: I’m very iffy on this one. In theory it gives the fantasy of a level 20 monk perfectly, being able to use all those early Ki abilities all the time, but in action it leaves the Monk with almost no reason to USE Ki unless they are a Monk of the way of the four elements. So I have a few things. First like the Bard and the Sorcerer, they should regain Ki on their turn if they are at 0, probably just 2 Ki. This gives the elemental monk its very base abilities to be used every turn, two diamond soul uses, but NOT a Quivering Palm, because that’s an exceptionally strong ability. Finally, I think this should give some kind of new way to use Ki to replace the loss of the uses of Ki on the lower level abilities, something very simple I think, like you can use Ki to make a perception or insight check as a free action, or something.

I considered doing this. But when I reviewed the various monk abilities, most of them only require a single point to activate. Diamond Soul lets you reroll a saving throw for a ki point. Stunning fist is only 1 ki point. Deflect missiles is a ki point if you wanna try and fire it back at the person. I just see having unlimited ability to do all that as too great. Which is why I went with eliminating the cost of the early monk abilities. This way they aren't just constantly rerolling saving throws and stuff.

I'll get to the other points sometime later. Perhaps tomorrow.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Paladin: I already talked about the short rest/long rest thing. So I’ll look at each change.

Holy Nimbus: First is that the holy nimbus addition is fine, but I think it should just make all creatures vulnerable to radiant damage, that’s very very strong but considering the lack of any real strength outside of fighting fiends and undead with this feature, it works. However because of this change, the damage from Holy Nimbus should be reduced to 5, so that it still deals 10 damage on the now Vulnerable targets. I’d even consider giving it something more? Like enemies attacking friendly creatures that are within the bright light have Disadvantage on the attack because of the brightness in their eyes.

Personally, I think being able to deal 10 damage automatically every round to everyone within 30ft for a minute is pretty powerful. That's 100 damage per minute per person without breaking a sweat.

Elder Champion: no problems here, you didn’t change anything except for the long to short rest, I like this ability as written in the PHB.

Yea, outside short rest vs long rest, I liked this as written.

Avenging Angel: You made a fairly big change to the ability, replacing the fear effect. I like your change but I think the fear effect should remain, for some kind of out of combat use, even if it’s really minor, since the other two have the tiniest, tiniest out of combat use.

Personally, I don't see these forms having much out of combat use, but maybe advantage on Intimidate checks wouldn't be terrible.

Ranger: I like this change you made, it’s still not very exciting which is a big problem of the ability in the first place, but I’d need to do a ton of brainstorming to think of a good ability. (though I’ve seen people playing with removing favoured terrain picking for an acclimation version instead, which if used with that would open up some interesting ideas).

No class outside the sorcerer has given me such a headache, and at least with the sorcerer I could produce a fix I was happy with.

Rogue: As written this is a great ability, but I have problems with your additions. First is that Once per short or Long rest you can maximize sneak attack damage? That is LUDICROUS, that’s 10d6, a free 60 damage is way too strong for a short rest. On Long Rest sure that’d work great, but definitely not short.
Second addition, I think this should be part of the base feature. Choosing to take a 20 (or force a 1 on an enemy), once per short or long rest is a-ok. Though ability check is a bit more grey, because of the sheer variety of effects that ability checks can cause. Like choosing to take a 20 on lifting and throwing a dragon is just silly, once again this would cause problems with the DM needing to make calls that they shouldn’t need to make to allow or disallow certain actions. Removing ability check from this would be a really way to just keep the quality of life on the ability safe.

Well, from my perspective, in comparison to the fighter capstone that get to maximize one attack per round this seems at least equivalent damage output wise. It makes the rogue, and especially the assassins, super deadly at level 20. IMO, that's how it should be.

As for the ability check, I disagree. Unlike an attack roll or saving throw, a roll of 20 is not an automatic success. So yea, a rogue may take the 20 to try to throw the dragon, but unless they have a +15 to strength checks or athletics checks, they wouldn't even have a chance.

Sorcerer: My only problem with this is that 3 SP regen is too much. 2 is a much better number for two reasons. First being that Heightened spell is a VERY strong metamagic ability, and being able to use that every turn would basically mean the Sorcerer gives permanent disadvantage on all spell casts.
Second, Think of the purpose of cantrips. They are meant to be a wizard’s solution to a weapon attack. Not a whole lot of damage, but is always there reliably, and increases at about the same pace as other classes get Extra Attacks and other such ways to increase their damage (like the paladin’s improved divine smite). A decrease to 2 SP per turn would mean that the Sorcerer would be able to cast level 1 spells as if they were cantrips, which is a very very strong ability on its own. Being able to cast level 2 spells as if they were cantrips is far too strong. A Cantrip at level 17 can do average 20 damage. If you consult page 283 of the DMG you can see that 1st and 2nd level spells are a little lower (12 and 18 respectively) but they often come with extra effects such as poisoning the target with Ray of Sickness, or knocking everyone around you back as with Thunderwave. Being able to cast level 1 spells as cantrips would really make the Sorcerer feel like an infinite font of powerful magic, and would be very similar to the Wizard’s Signature Spell feature.

Well, one thing I've done is house rule that heighten spell required 4 SP. But given the more limited selection a sorcerer is likely to have in terms of 1st and 2nd level spells by level 20 (most sorcerers will cannibalize them to trade in for higher level spells) and the wizard can choose any 2nd level spell to cast like a cantrip with signature spell (remember they can always change their choice after a long rest), I think this ability is appropriate.

Warlock: I agree with your reasonings here. But I think you threw away the idea of fixing the PHB ability too quickly. If it were changed to rolling initiative with no spell slots = regain 1 spell slot, I think it’d be a great way to balance the ability to stay consistent with others in the game.

That definitely seems like a viable option. But I like the idea of further customizing the warlock similar to the paladin.

The only problems I have with your aspect of the blank features is:

Aspect of the Fiend: This summoning can cause real problems for the flow of the game. You need to be VERY careful with summoning abilities, as WotC has explained before, a summoning ability can only do one of two things: you sit back and let the summons do all the work, or the summon is useless. It’s too hard to balance. Second is how much it slows down gameplay, with an extra monster in play suddenly there’s another turn and more rolls are added to each round of initiative, this combined with the potential for a Warlock who has this ability to have the Pact of the Chain means they could run around with two summons, then they cast a conjuration spell, it all gets out of hand too easily. I definitely think you should avoid summoning abilities whenever possible.

I understand your concerns. However, the warlock does not control the fiend. It's DM controlled and will defend you or kill your enemies. That being said, this fiend is unconcerned with your allies and if your allies get in the way it won't bat an eye.

Great Old One: Where the heck does the immunity to critical hits come from? That’s just out of nowhere and doesn’t fit the flavor at all. It can be cut out of the ability and it will still work well.

It fit in my head, thinking of becoming an aberration with mutable physiology and such.

Second I don’t think an “aura of madness” works here. I think it would be more in line if it were part of your physical transformation, any creature that sees you gets feared and confused, or something like that.

You could do that, I suppose.

Additionally, I think you should be able to use your Awakened Mind feature offensively while in this transformation, like assaulting the mind with alien incomprehensible imagery to deal psychic damage or for some kind of effect.

I guess from my perspective, my way of doing the mental assault thing was through the aura of madness. In addition, I expanded on the warlock ability regarding psychic damage. I don't have the book at the moment, so I can't think of the name.

Wizard: For the sole reason that you didn’t include this: Signature Spell is great but I think it should have one more minor thing on it, something that makes it more unique instead of just being able to cast two 3rd level spells without expending a slot. Basically just what you’ve been saying about making the abilities really unique.

I don't disagree totally. What might you suggest?

 

[WaywardWaffle]

Nothing right off the top of my head... maybe something like a minor twin cast for cantrips, so that they stay viable in the face of signature spell.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Nothing right off the top of my head... maybe something like a minor twin cast for cantrips, so that they stay viable in the face of signature spell.

Sorry, you lost me there. Are you talking about the Wizard capstone or Sorcerer capstone?

If the Wizard, I'm almost ok with just giving the wizard a single 3rd level spell to be cast as a cantrip. Almost. When compared with the Sorcerer, it kinda evens out. Sorcerers have more flexibility, but Wizards have the oompf. Not sure though.

Actually, the more I think about it, in comparison with infinite Wildshape and free wish, a constant 3rd level spell seems ok. I would have it only one spell rather than two as originally defined by Signature Spell, but it can be changed after a long rest.

 

[WaywardWaffle]

Oh sorry I meant for the Wizard. Also still kicking around ideas for this. So idea for the Close Quarter's Shooter capstone fighting style.

Trick Shot: requires Close Quarters Shooter: When a creature within 30ft of you has total cover, you can make an attack roll with disadvantage against the target.

.... or something like that.... Originally I was thinking have the arrow phase through the cover but that sounds like something that would fit into some obscure ranger archtype so I'm going to save that for a future homebrew. Trick shot is more the idea that you're somehow able to bank an arrow and hit the target even when they're behind cover.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

That's not a bad idea. I might say that trickshot just ignores all cover and can target enemies behind total cover. That seems more equivalent to peerless archer.