D&D 5E Level 20 Class Competition Ideas

[DND_Reborn]

@dnd4vr

I've posted some suggestions of my own here; let me know if any of them are useful.

I supposed allowing standard point-buy would be okay, I just went with Standard Array to keep it simple and even since some groups might not use point-buy as it is a variant rule?

I'm not really interested in so many sub-categories of competition. Maybe after the initial run? It would depend on how difficult it would be to organize.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Would you want prep time to include the activation on a magic item instead of casting a spell? I am not sure I like the idea but I'll throw it out there.

I‘d say you are wearing your armor, you have the equipment you want in your hands, and you can cast/activate a single Personal range effect of any type you may have with an activation time of 10 minutes or less. For everything else, you are treated like you just finished a long rest, so a Sorcerer hasn’t preconverted any sorcery points to spell slots, a Devotion Paladin doesn’t have his Sacred Weapon on, etc.

I do think we might find that allowing everyone to have magic items (rather than just those who get them as class abilities) will increase the complexity a lot and eventually showcase a few items as the “must haves” and we‘ll have to go back to not allowing them to better compare classes.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I supposed allowing standard point-buy would be okay, I just went with Standard Array to keep it simple and even since some groups might not use point-buy as it is a variant rule?

Array and point buy are presented as equal alternatives to rolling in the PHB (and you can buy the array with point buy). That said, there might be merit to sticking with array for this contest because it will create better balanced characters, whereas otherwise there is no reason not to do extreme min-maxing since you don't care about anything but this fight.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I‘d say you are wearing your armor, you have the equipment you want in your hands, and you can cast/activate a single Personal range effect of any type you may have with an activation time of 10 minutes or less. For everything else, you are treated like you just finished a long rest, so a Sorcerer hasn’t preconverted any sorcery points to spell slots, a Devotion Paladin doesn’t have his Sacred Weapon on, etc.

I do think we might find that allowing everyone to have magic items (rather than just those who get them as class abilities) will increase the complexity a lot and eventually showcase a few items as the “must haves” and we‘ll have to go back to not allowing them to better compare classes.

I think reasonable prep like that is possible.

Removing magic items is fine, but I would offer one contingency if that was the case: weapon attacks are magical. You won't get any bonuses to hit or damage, but you can overcome resistance to non-magical attacks. This is because martials such as fighters and barbarians have no way really of making their attack magical, but in most games 20-th level PCs would have magical weapons.

That is my take on it anyway.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Array and point buy are presented as equal alternatives to rolling in the PHB (and you can buy the array with point buy). That said, there might be merit to sticking with array for this contest because it will create better balanced characters, whereas otherwise there is no reason not to do extreme min-maxing since you don't care about anything but this fight.

Exactly. We use point-buy at our games, but the Standard Array puts more focus on the class than min-maxing ability scores. That is why I started with it to remove variability and focus more on the classes.

 

[Helldritch]

As I have said in an other related topic, characters should be build for various possibilities. There should be some basic assumptions that should be made.

Unfortunately, a lot of the assumptions will differ from table to the others. Would you allow a wizard his simulacrums? I know that in a normal campaign, any mage high level enough to cast this spell would have it. Some DM might even allow multiple simulacums where I would not. Some would allow a sorcerer to have one where I would rule that the sorcerer would not use a wish for simulacrum as I would not count a ritual as a spell. Some tables do not use feats, others do. Wouls you allow familliars? Contingencies? Would a warlock be allowed his hex? Could a ranger already have his hunter mark ready? A paladin could have his mount already.

In all fairness, the combattants should have access to some magic items such as basic + weapons and armor. Some potions should be available as should feats be allowed. Leaving the areana for any reasons such as teleporting or changing plane should be an immediate disqualification.

There are a lot of things to consider and a lot of differences between each tables. I don't think this is feasible.

 

[Lucas Blackstone]

Hey guys,

Sorry I didn't get to respond until today but we had our first lives session again yesterday (10 hours long!). Since a lot of the post seem to focus on the arena, here's what I was thinking and you all can let me know what you think:

1. There are four maps (as stated before).
2. Each map will vary from sparse to complex in objects (such as rocks, trees, walls, or other obstacles for maneuvering around, hiding, etc.).
2a. Since the idea is a 100 x 100 grid, sparse would be 10% of the squares, the next level maybe 15-20%, then 20-25%, and maybe 30% max for complex.
2a. If people have maps, you can post them here for consideration by the forum.
3. Light conditions could be either random for the entire arena, or dark, dim, or bright in spots as determined by the map?
4. Starting distance could be random between the requested distances?
Example: A requests the maximum distance (740 feet, opposite corners, one flying 250 feet high, the other on the ground) and B requests 60 feet. A random bell-curve would determine the distance using those extremes.

For Initiative:

Maybe, if we do two out of three rounds, we could give Initiative to one player, then to the other, and have the last match be rolled Initiative?



I think two wins out of three matches. A win requires the opponent to be rendered dead, petrified, or otherwise defeated (i.e. there is nothing they can do and no way to recover from their current state). The DM will arbitrate when a win is scored.

As far as the rules:
1. You can go into the Astral or Ethereal, but must return (see condition #2).
2. You cannot go to another plane (no elemental, no outer, no alternative prime).
3. If you do not act in some fashion (make an attack roll, force a saving throw, or reaction) against your opponent within 3 of their turns, you forfeit.

Anything else?

Initiative is huge in this competition. Just giving it to someone is giving the match away with the more powerful contenders. It's like directly removing abilities from some classes if they involve them winning initiative. I don't like the idea of initiative being automatically won by either side and would rather see it rolled.

 

[DND_Reborn]

As I have said in an other related topic, characters should be build for various possibilities. There should be some basic assumptions that should be made.

Unfortunately, a lot of the assumptions will differ from table to the others. Would you allow a wizard his simulacrums? I know that in a normal campaign, any mage high level enough to cast this spell would have it. Some DM might even allow multiple simulacums where I would not. Some would allow a sorcerer to have one where I would rule that the sorcerer would not use a wish for simulacrum as I would not count a ritual as a spell. Some tables do not use feats, others do. Wouls you allow familliars? Contingencies? Would a warlock be allowed his hex? Could a ranger already have his hunter mark ready? A paladin could have his mount already.

In all fairness, the combattants should have access to some magic items such as basic + weapons and armor. Some potions should be available as should feats be allowed. Leaving the areana for any reasons such as teleporting or changing plane should be an immediate disqualification.

There are a lot of things to consider and a lot of differences between each tables. I don't think this is feasible.

Based on post in other threads, Simulacrums would have to be a hard "no". Otherwise, Wizards would be unbeatable, and Sorcerers second.

If you were talking about 20th level PCs in most games worlds, yes, a Wizard will have up to 4 simulacrums (the maximum) and a Sorcerer 2 (his maximum). A MC Sorcerer/Wizard could have a lot more (like 30!).

Familiars are not you. So, no unless you had to use an action to summon it from a pocket dimension or something? A Paladin's steed is also not "you". It's open to debate, but my inclinations are no in general.

Anything that requires an action I don't think should be started with. Otherwise features that allow flight would allow the character to already be aloft. That's my view anyway.

No contingency for similar reasons.

Currently you are allows two uncommon magic items, one rare items from the OP IIRC. So pick a potion if you want to.

Feats are already allowed.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Initiative is huge in this competition. Just giving it to someone is giving the match away with the more powerful contenders. It's like directly removing abilities from some classes if they involve them winning initiative. I don't like the idea of initiative being automatically won by either side and would rather see it rolled.

Thanks for your input. I know it is powerful, but that is why I also suggested best two of three rounds. If you are likely to win Initiative, you will win one round and likely win another, and can see how you fair in the rare cases you might lose it.

 

[Lucas Blackstone]

Subtle Counterspell.
But, lets assume that you can do it.
And now?

By telling you all the flaws in your character all that does it let you improve it. But I will give you this one for free.

After you lose initiative your own bottle stops you from casting Subtle Counterspell. Nothing in the description says you can see through the smoke.

If we pretend you don't have the bottle, how do you counter subtle Time Stop?

With 2 to 5 turns to cast other spells, you will end up being defeated before you even get to go. There are too many combinations of spells after this Time Stop to explain how you would end up defeated. Improved Invisibility removes subtle counterspell from the equation. Now you are a guy standing there for 1 to 4 more turns while other spells are cast.