Level 20 commoners?

[Evilhalfling]

No one has posted a link to the Common Commner in the archieves?
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=97601&page=1&pp=20
I could justify up to commoner lvl 9 - with a mix of combat and RP exp.
but no further. As this is where you stop getting xp for CR1
demi-humans with centuries to devote could be higher levels, but certainly not the 4 per metropolis listed in DMG - that is a number made to be ignored.
For litterary ref Cut-My-Own-Throat Dibbler is prolly a high level commoner
as the only thing he ever does is sell things, but he has been involved in lots of adventures
by high level I mean 9-12 max.

I tried justifying a 17th lvl commoner as a semi-retared serial killer, who was never trained to anything better, but he still eventually took levels in assasian. And I was never fully satisfied with him.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

For litterary ref Cut-My-Own-Throat Dibbler is prolly a high level commoner as the only thing he ever does is sell things, but he has been involved in lots of adventures by high level I mean 9-12 max.

Commoner?! CMOT Dibbler?! Ha! That man's a Sneaky Bastard 20

 

[Angel Tarragon]

I recently acquired Lone Wolf from Crothain in a trade. I thought for too long that advancing as a commoner from levels 1 to 20 was pretty pathetic. Once I read the rules for Lone Wolf commoners I decided that those would be the rules that I use for advancing commoners in every campaign I GM or play in.

 

[drnuncheon]

But as an idea that NPCs can gain experience in other ways than PCs I'd buy into that. What still frustrates me than though is if NPCs get it from crafting etc...(non combat activities) why do they gain Hit Points and levels?

Because levels and hit points are "plot protection". The best swordsmith in the world is a more important character than J. Random Unnamed Commoner in the field, so he's harder to kill.

J

 

[DragonLancer]

The "challenge" is surviving (and maybe even advancing a little) in a quasi-medieval society. The means of overcoming this challenge is by employing skills to earn a living.

Instead of slaying monsters, the Blacksmith manages to make enough money to feed his children. <DING !>1 CR 5 challenge overcome.

Except that thats not a challenge as discribed by the corebooks. A challenge is defeating a monster, trap or big bad. What your are suggesting there is a RP award at best and not much of one really.

A commoner (which represents a townie or farmer) is not going to gain much XP in his lifetime unless his village is constantly under threat and he fights for his life against an opponent on a regular basis. And if he did, then by simple game mechanics he would have multiclassed into warrior or fighter.

The craftsman (as has been said) is the Expert, and the same applies to that guy. Spending his life sweating away in a smithy is not going to earn him much XP.

This just happens to be exactly what Sean K. Reynolds was saying in the afore-mentioned article on his web site; that Commoners, Experts, etc., advance by facing approximately 1 CR1 challenge per month in the course of their lives. Making rent payments on the shop, saving some of the crop from locusts, etc., is the type of challenge they face.

Again, thats not a challenge as per the RAW. Its a houserule if you wish to do this way, but I don't think it makes sense to do that. You would have to apply it to PC's and other NPC's as well.

 

[Vaxalon]

...thats not a challenge as per the RAW.

Sure it is.

What's happening here is that the challenges aren't being described in specific terms. They are, indeed, encounters of one kind or another.

Let's take the typical farmer.

He's got a CR 1 challenge every month.

Here's a list of what those challenges might be:

1> An infestation of rats in his barn
2> A blight affecting his crops... the challenge here is to convince the local priest to cast a "cure disease" for him
3> A completely unsuitable young man courting his daughter
4> Winning the annual hog competition
5> Training a new guard dog

I don't think I need to go on.

Now if these sound like boring challenges to play out... they are. That's why the PC's are wizards and fighters and rogues rather than commoners and experts.

If the PC's want to set themselves humble goals like these, then they're welcome to get experience from humble encounters and challenges.

 

[Klaus]

20th-Level Commoner? Easy!

Buffy's Xander.

He's endured one-too-many Apocalipsi (is that correct?). Yet he's not strong enough to be a warrior type, he's not qualified to be a spellcaster, he has no special computer skills. He's just an average guy who weathered extraordinary things (including the loss of an eye).

In D&D terms, Xander is the 20th-level Commoner (maybe even an Epic-Level Commoner!).

 

[Staffan]

I notice a lot of people think that commoners would be the craftsmen and other skilled workers of the world. I always though that's what experts were for. I picture commoners as farmers and unskilled laborers. If that's not the case, what exactly are experts?

Commoners, at least high-level ones, are specialists. They know a scant few skills, none of them particularly esoteric (mostly things like Craft or Profession) but they can get pretty good at them. An Expert, on the other hand, has a wide variety of skills, and it's likely that some of them are pretty uncommon (like various Knowledges, Disable Device, Heal, Decipher script). They're not necessarily better at them than commoners are, however.

 

[Staffan]

Except that thats not a challenge as discribed by the corebooks. A challenge is defeating a monster, trap or big bad. What your are suggesting there is a RP award at best and not much of one really.

Funny. My DMG 3.5 mentions the following as possible encounters (which would have a CR and thus give XP):
* Combat.
* Negotiation.
* Environmental problems.
* Problem-solving.
* Judgment Calls.
* Investigation.

Not just beating things up and getting hit by/bypassing traps.

 

[billd91]

Commoners, at least high-level ones, are specialists. They know a scant few skills, none of them particularly esoteric (mostly things like Craft or Profession) but they can get pretty good at them. An Expert, on the other hand, has a wide variety of skills, and it's likely that some of them are pretty uncommon (like various Knowledges, Disable Device, Heal, Decipher script). They're not necessarily better at them than commoners are, however.

It's worth thinking of experts as being tradesmen or specialists whose very trade or specialty is best represented by a suite of skills in D&D.

The sage with multiple knowledge skills
The locksmith with craft, disable device, open locks
The village hunter with survival, hide, move silently

Commoners are the people below that level of breadth of profession

Farmers
Animal Handlers
Coopers
Servants

In some cases, I'm sure we can come up with alternatives like a farmer who is also really good at two or three other skills like beekeeping and brewing mead. In this case, then use Expert to model that character.

But I really like the example of Farmer Maggot being a 20th level commoner. No wonder he got so much respect from Sam and the others.