Level Advancement Rate in 3e
- Thread starter cbatt
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Bendris Noulg
First Post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 3e is too fast for me
See, the MM states that a Hill Giant is CR10, and thus a 10th Level Fighter should be on equal odds. But this is assumptive of playing style: It assumes that the Fighter has picked the optimum Feats, selected the optimum Skills, and has a pre-determined amount of treasure and magic.
If CR didn't enforce this, than your remark would have been more along the lines of, "If your 10th Level Fighter only has a +1 Sword, than a Fire Giant will have a higher CR than the 10 given it in the Monster Manual."
Instead, your answer is one of compliance to the CR System, which illustrates the flaw in the system that I'm talking about.
But you see! You've validated my statement right here!hong said:
See, the MM states that a Hill Giant is CR10, and thus a 10th Level Fighter should be on equal odds. But this is assumptive of playing style: It assumes that the Fighter has picked the optimum Feats, selected the optimum Skills, and has a pre-determined amount of treasure and magic.
If CR didn't enforce this, than your remark would have been more along the lines of, "If your 10th Level Fighter only has a +1 Sword, than a Fire Giant will have a higher CR than the 10 given it in the Monster Manual."
Instead, your answer is one of compliance to the CR System, which illustrates the flaw in the system that I'm talking about.
The default setting is Greyhawk (as others have already pointed out), so I guess it depends on how 'generic' your view of Greyhawk to be... either way, I think it's fairly irrelevant.
Yes, there's a standard baseline in terms of treasure and power relative to character level. It may or may not match up with your vision of what an X level character can accumulate or accomplish. Big deal. If it doesn't suit your needs adjust it, but be mindful of the consequences, especially as it relates to appropriately challenging PC's. It says as much in the Core Books. Arguably it's an added step, but it certainly isn't that difficult. CR's are a guideline, but they aren't etched in stone, and I don't think anyone implied as much.
As for the speed of gaining levels, to each their own. Personally, I like the idea of being able to get close to level 20 after a year of gaming. Not everyone can (or wants to) devote a decade of their life to a single campaign, heaven forbid.
And just because you (and I mean you in the most generic way possible) may have a character that has taken 4 years to reach level 15, and I have one that reached level 15 after a single year of gaming, it doesn't make your character any 'better' than mine. If you think it does, here's a bit of advice. Find a pair of ice tongs and a helpful friend that can keep a secret since you likely have some large foreign object stuck up your backside.
I never thought I'd say this, but I actually miss people bitching about the Harm spell, Half-Orcs, and Rangers...
Yes, there's a standard baseline in terms of treasure and power relative to character level. It may or may not match up with your vision of what an X level character can accumulate or accomplish. Big deal. If it doesn't suit your needs adjust it, but be mindful of the consequences, especially as it relates to appropriately challenging PC's. It says as much in the Core Books. Arguably it's an added step, but it certainly isn't that difficult. CR's are a guideline, but they aren't etched in stone, and I don't think anyone implied as much.
As for the speed of gaining levels, to each their own. Personally, I like the idea of being able to get close to level 20 after a year of gaming. Not everyone can (or wants to) devote a decade of their life to a single campaign, heaven forbid.
And just because you (and I mean you in the most generic way possible) may have a character that has taken 4 years to reach level 15, and I have one that reached level 15 after a single year of gaming, it doesn't make your character any 'better' than mine. If you think it does, here's a bit of advice. Find a pair of ice tongs and a helpful friend that can keep a secret since you likely have some large foreign object stuck up your backside.
I never thought I'd say this, but I actually miss people bitching about the Harm spell, Half-Orcs, and Rangers...
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barsoomcore
Unattainable Ideal
Re: 3e is too fast for me
A) the indicated level of magic items/treasure
B) the indicated number and distribution of classes in the party
C) the indicated magic system and ruleset
Basically, CR works ONLY if you actually play they way you're actually told to play. Er.
That doesn't make CR useless in a campaign that doesn't work in the "standard" fashion -- I use it all the time in a campaign with no divine spellcasters, only one arcane spellcaster who pretty much kills anyone who comes near her, almost no magic items and all sorts of wacky house rules.
Now certainly I can't just rummage through the CR list, grab a monster of the appropriate level and go to town -- I have to read up on the beastie first, understand how its abilities might be countered by my party, yada yada yada. Still, CR is a good general indicator of how tough a creature is. So when I'm looking for the big nasty at the end of the tunnel, I know where to start. It's handy.
Sure I have to tweak the CR system -- I've tweaked everything else in my game, so big deal. I basically just hand out however much experience I feel like handing out at the end of a session so I don't have much need for a Super-Dooper-XP-Calculator anyway.
Well, that's only if your campaign hasBendris Noulg said:
A) the indicated level of magic items/treasure
B) the indicated number and distribution of classes in the party
C) the indicated magic system and ruleset
Basically, CR works ONLY if you actually play they way you're actually told to play. Er.
That doesn't make CR useless in a campaign that doesn't work in the "standard" fashion -- I use it all the time in a campaign with no divine spellcasters, only one arcane spellcaster who pretty much kills anyone who comes near her, almost no magic items and all sorts of wacky house rules.
Now certainly I can't just rummage through the CR list, grab a monster of the appropriate level and go to town -- I have to read up on the beastie first, understand how its abilities might be countered by my party, yada yada yada. Still, CR is a good general indicator of how tough a creature is. So when I'm looking for the big nasty at the end of the tunnel, I know where to start. It's handy.
Sure I have to tweak the CR system -- I've tweaked everything else in my game, so big deal. I basically just hand out however much experience I feel like handing out at the end of a session so I don't have much need for a Super-Dooper-XP-Calculator anyway.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 3e is too fast for me
I have no idea what you're trying to get at here.
Now you're just being silly.
The system is balanced under the default assumptions of treasure and items. If you start changing things around, _of course_ you're going to have to make adjustments. Your point is what, exactly? That you should be able to change treasure amounts willy-nilly and not have to worry about changing CRs as well? That's pie-in-the-sky stuff. Excuse me for not getting too worked up that it isn't going to happen.
Also, try putting a 10th level fighter with a +1 sword up against a 10th level wizard. Or an osyluth, or a dragon, or anything with lots of supernatural abilities. There is a reason why high-level characters get lots of magic.
Bendris Noulg said:
I have no idea what you're trying to get at here.
Now you're just being silly.
The system is balanced under the default assumptions of treasure and items. If you start changing things around, _of course_ you're going to have to make adjustments. Your point is what, exactly? That you should be able to change treasure amounts willy-nilly and not have to worry about changing CRs as well? That's pie-in-the-sky stuff. Excuse me for not getting too worked up that it isn't going to happen.
Also, try putting a 10th level fighter with a +1 sword up against a 10th level wizard. Or an osyluth, or a dragon, or anything with lots of supernatural abilities. There is a reason why high-level characters get lots of magic.
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Bendris Noulg
First Post
Re: Re: 3e is too fast for me
It is unfortunate that 9 out of 10 responses to the situation of which I address is comparible to Hong's reply; And it's because it's 9 out of 10 that it is a problem. Too many people forget that it's just a tool and consider it to be the gospel of the system, basing all of their comments and views on it as a universal truth that must be (see Hong's last post for his attempt to reinforce this).
Your response is the rarity; Unfortunately, after I spelled-out the matter clearly for Hong, it's slightly suspect. But I'll accept this as fact for now.barsoomcore said:
It is unfortunate that 9 out of 10 responses to the situation of which I address is comparible to Hong's reply; And it's because it's 9 out of 10 that it is a problem. Too many people forget that it's just a tool and consider it to be the gospel of the system, basing all of their comments and views on it as a universal truth that must be (see Hong's last post for his attempt to reinforce this).
Corinth
First Post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 3e is too fast for me
That's not a flaw. That's a deliberate design decision, a feature and a big strength of the system. Hong pointed out that having a defined default is good because it provides a baseline that folks like you can use when you create your own material; the default acts as a standard that you can compare against when judging a creation's effectiveness, and thus allow you to hit the goal that you want with exacting precision.Bendris Noulg said:
Thorin Stoutfoot
First Post
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 3e is too fast for me
WRONG! CR is determined by playing the four iconic characters against it at a particular level and seeing if it uses 25% of their resources. If you look up the stats for the iconic characters, you'll see that they are NOT optimized.
See the other thread out there about CRs and issues with them. (I believe it's titled "Sean's problem with high level play")
Bendris Noulg said:
WRONG! CR is determined by playing the four iconic characters against it at a particular level and seeing if it uses 25% of their resources. If you look up the stats for the iconic characters, you'll see that they are NOT optimized.
See the other thread out there about CRs and issues with them. (I believe it's titled "Sean's problem with high level play")
