Level one...hero or schlub?

[Pentius]

This quote makes me wonder how much "edition" has on our expectations. Because I grew up on earlier versions, things were a little more open in terms of where you could "place" your 1st level characters at the start of a campaign. The latest edition encourages a particular facet of that previously open spectrum (which we embraced the first couple of times but I would now seek to reject come a future campaign). I wonder if this aspect colours newer players perspectives as much as older games shaded mine?

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

While that would be an interesting question, the spectrum is actually fairly open in all the editions, though arguably slanted one way or another. What I think likely has a larger impact on newer players is the end of the spectrum their group caters to. If you're 'raised' thinking that starting as schlubs is the Right Way to Game, I don't think a particular system is going to have much to do with it.

As for where I fall, well, I like to keep my options open. I mean, I don't want my first level characters to be King of the Universe and Everything In It, but some characters feel right starting at the first time they lay hands on a weapon, and some feel right starting after a couple years hard military duty.

 

[Celebrim]

Luke Skywalker becomes 1st level at the point where he returns to Ben, and says, "I want to come with you. There's nothing for me here now. I want to learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi like my father."

Prior to this scene Luke is already, "The best bush pilot in the outer rim." Ergo, not first level or really even close. Luke is able to hold his own in a fight with one of the most experienced smugglers and gunmen in the Galaxy. Luke is at least 6th level (or equivalent) at the beginning of Star Wars - he's just not yet a Jedi (no Sense Force skill).

Samwise Gamgee becomes 1st level at the point where he stops and says, "This is it. If I take one more step, it's the furthest I've ever been from home," and then he takes that step.

Prior to this scene, Samwise is a 38 year old hobbit laborer. He doesn't have a lot of breadth to his experience, but he's clearly experienced. I'm thinking more 2nd level commoner.

And Neo becomes 1st level when he takes the Red Pill.

Prior to this scene, Neo is an extremely compotent hacker investigating the Maxtrix from the inside. He's at least a 2nd level Expert or some equivalent (Smart Hero?).

 

[Raven Crowking]

I set up my ruleset so that third level characters are clearly members of their class, and have the basic abilities one would expect of that class. Most NPCs are 3rd level.

The average 1st level PC is less skilled in some things than the average Normal Man 3, but the Normal Man and the PC have hit points that are roughly on par. In addition, the PC has abilities that the Normal Man does not.

Finally, the PC is a "champion class creature" -- some Power has taken an interest in his life, making him slightly luckier than average (in game terms, the PC doesn't die at 0 hit points, but can go into negatives, and can "shake off" some damage). Some NPCs and monsters (including some Normal Men) are also champion class.

So, a 1st level PC is neither clearly a hero, nor clearly a schlub, although he or she may be mistaken for either, depending upon the context.


RC

 

[frankthedm]

It's sad when a character can be above average in all ways and still be viewed as a schlub just because they have to avoid taking too many stabs in the belly. Heaven forbid that Fighting Defensively at firs level might be a good idea.

Even a first level Fighter has Elite Ability scores [ or better ], max HP and better class abilities over the VAST bulk of those trained to fight ( Level one Warriors ). Of course it might not seem that way when DM give out class levels like candy to mooks and peons.

 

[Celebrim]

Of course it might not seem that way when DM give out class levels like candy to mooks and peons.

Indeed.

a) I detest NPC's with stat arrays that are so uber that they are far beyond what the PC's could ever hope to have.
b) I detest it when effectively every NPC in the game world is built to an elite or better stat array so that 14 is effectively average and a PC legitimately must feel inferior if he has an attribute at 10.
c) I detest when the BBEG has a room full of unnamed minions who are all each 10th level fighters who apparantly have nothing better to do but wait to be killed solely because the PC's are supposed to be 16th level at this point in the game.
d) I detest NPC's that are leveled up to high level simply to be uber. Like, every king is a 20th level character, every local mayor or constable is 10th level, and every city worthy of the title has at least a dozen characters of 9th level or higher.
e) I hate demographics that are dependent solely on gamist concerns. The most common is that every temple has a priest capable of casting raise dead, but town guards or merchants who are much higher level than any of the monsters that supposedly threaten the town are another egregious offender. I remember playing Ultima IV and thinking, "Wouldn't any one of these many bands of Guards be able to slaughter every wandering monster in Brittania? What do they need me to defend the towns for given that the bandits are like level 1 and the gaurds are level 12?" Yet some PnP games have similar demographics.

All of these things combine to make PC's unheroic regardless of their level. No matter what they do, they are still treated by the NPC's as Schlubs and still rate in comparison to the NPC's as Schlubs. I don't care how many kobold minions you can slaughter, if back in town there are hundreds of NPC's that could do the job better, you're still a Schlub.

 

[SSquirrel]

I can't imagine ever playing a D&D character afraid of housecats - which game are you referring to here? In earlier editions, I can sense a wariness versus combat at low level but I can't imagine a combat involving a housecat.

1E AD&D. Housecats could deal 1 damage and if you had a crappy Con or a bad roll, you could only have 1HP possibly. I don't know how 1E 1st level Wizards ever left the house at all they were so fragile

 

[S'mon]

Prior to this scene Luke is already, "The best bush pilot in the outer rim." Ergo, not first level or really even close. Luke is able to hold his own in a fight with one of the most experienced smugglers and gunmen in the Galaxy. Luke is at least 6th level (or equivalent) at the beginning of Star Wars - he's just not yet a Jedi (no Sense Force skill).

Prior to this scene, Samwise is a 38 year old hobbit laborer. He doesn't have a lot of breadth to his experience, but he's clearly experienced. I'm thinking more 2nd level commoner.

Prior to this scene, Neo is an extremely compotent hacker investigating the Maxtrix from the inside. He's at least a 2nd level Expert or some equivalent (Smart Hero?).

I think these examples are pretty typical of adventure fiction - very few characters start as true novices. Ironically one possibility I can think of is Conan in CtB, when he gets shoved into the fighting pit he's had no combat training and wins purely by superior strength, toughness and will.

Personally I think game systems work best with the default PC created as somewhat experienced heroes, with the possibility of creating 'novice prodigy'. Some space to create a backstory seems to create more interesting characters and better roleplay IME.

 

[Mallus]

I think these examples are pretty typical of adventure fiction - very few characters start as true novices.

Conversely, most fantasy fiction protagonists are not the equivalent of 1st level D&D characters. Even the supposedly puny, homebody ones.

Mr. Frodo survives getting smacked by a Ringwraith on Weathertop. Without a cleric in the parry. Frodo was no 1st level thief.

 

[S'mon]

Conversely, most fantasy fiction protagonists are not the equivalent of 1st level D&D characters.

Mr. Frodo survives getting tagged by a Ringwraith on Weathetop, with no cleric in the parry. Frodo was no 1st level thief.

This is what I was saying, certainly pre-4e D&D at 1st level does not model even starting-out-heroes at all well.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I prefer my characters to be average Joe. They are heroes because they do what must be done, not because they are somehow better than other people. They might be in a little better shape - you don't generally go from couch potato to the caves of chaos overnight - but generally, they represent the average person with a bit more ambition and fortitude.