Level Up!

[LostSoul]

One thing bothers me though: those of you who still award xp, you all mention things like "bonus xp for good roleplaying" or good ideas, paying attention or even attendance.

I don't. I have a pretty strict system that determines when Quest XP is awarded. If you can complete the quest through "good roleplaying", good ideas, or paying attention, then you get the XP.

Or you could hack your way to your goal, but that has costs and risks.

My players initially signalled disappointment when I told them I'd no longer grant them xp and simply let them level up whenever it made (story) sense.

That makes sense to me, because now the players have no control over when they gain levels. You could change that by listing what sorts of things would give them a level increase, but guess what - that's an XP system!

I don't like the idea of having to cram 10 or so encounters/skill challenges/quests down my player's throats per level in Dark Sun. I want the emphasis to be on survival, building a network of allies, hiding from enemies, and exploration - not killing x number of baddies per level.

I don't get it - why not just drop XP for killing monsters and award only Quest XP, then make "survival, building a network of allies, hiding from enemies, and exploration" all Quests? That way players can make decisions based on what they want to do and how fast they want to level up; level gain remains part of the game.

 

[Stumblewyk]

I don't get it - why not just drop XP for killing monsters and award only Quest XP, then make "survival, building a network of allies, hiding from enemies, and exploration" all Quests? That way players can make decisions based on what they want to do and how fast they want to level up; level gain remains part of the game.

I'm making a much more concerted effort with this Dark Sun campaign to sandbox things. I want to give the PCs the opportunity to shape the campaign arc, and I think this "xp-free" method might help me do that. I'll provide the oppressive, deadly world, and them decide how they want to survive in it.

Every player but one is on board with giving it a try. And that one has only expressed reservations. Who knows? Maybe we'll end up deciding we don't like it. Maybe it'll work. I'm game for trying new things, apparently they are too.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

If your players like 'getting something' for doing something cool you may want to implement what I've done in my games. I give out action points to someone who role plays exceptionally well in challenging situations, thinks outside of the box, or does something really game-changing. This way they feel rewarded for doing something without even thinking about the experience and it actually encourages these types of things from the players. My players don't seem to miss XP at all in my game and don't feel they have to rush from combat to combat to level up.

 

[LostSoul]

I'm making a much more concerted effort with this Dark Sun campaign to sandbox things. I want to give the PCs the opportunity to shape the campaign arc, and I think this "xp-free" method might help me do that. I'll provide the oppressive, deadly world, and them decide how they want to survive in it.

Every player but one is on board with giving it a try. And that one has only expressed reservations. Who knows? Maybe we'll end up deciding we don't like it. Maybe it'll work. I'm game for trying new things, apparently they are too.

Here's what I would suggest for a sandbox game. I don't have Dark Sun, so I don't know if this would work.

Quests

• Surviving under the Dark Sun is hard. Surviving a day in the wild is a Minor Quest of the level of the hex/trip. (I'm not sure if that makes sense; I'd imagine that things like terrain hazards and wandering monsters are level-based.)
• You need allies to aid your adventures. Gaining a new ally is a Minor Quest of the level of the ally.
• Sometimes fighting is not the best solution. Hiding from enemies is a Minor Quest of the level of the encounter.
• Dark Sun is a fascinating world. Exploring a new location for the first time is a Minor Quest of the location's level.

With that system in place, players know what they are being rewarded for and can drive the game, making decisions based on what they want to do and XP awards. This will tend to reward risk, since higher-level situations will provide more XP, but also smart choices - sometimes you can get XP without rolling dice.

Just a thought!

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

If your players like 'getting something' for doing something cool you may want to implement what I've done in my games. I give out action points to someone who role plays exceptionally well in challenging situations, thinks outside of the box, or does something really game-changing. This way they feel rewarded for doing something without even thinking about the experience and it actually encourages these types of things from the players. My players don't seem to miss XP at all in my game and don't feel they have to rush from combat to combat to level up.

I find this method works really well, with or without XP. Handing out APs in our games is even more significant since we have a few other houserules affecting them as well.

The modification we made is that APs don't reset after an extended rest; you can continue to accumulate them, but if you run out, you don't automatically get one back either. It becomes a decision point to use them or not. Getting one as a reward feels rewarding.

Every level-up you get one per-tier, and one per milestone, as usual. We started doing it this way a couple months ago and have handed one out at a rate of not-quite-one-per session.

 

[Robtheman]

benefits of bestowing levels over tracking xp

Benefits of bestowing levels

- Leveling up becomes story driven
- Leveling up doesn't occur at awkward times (half way through a dungeon, for instance)
- Leveling up feels less like a mechanical process and more of a sign of character achievement
- Leveling occurs when I expect it to, which allows planning of encounters for a specific party level. No going back to re-budget an encounter because the players gained a level earlier than I anticipated

In my current campaign the party leveled in the following ways
- Defeated their first major villain (level 2) - reward

- Reached a new city and succeeded at a major skill challenge that drove the plot forward and gained them a critical ally (level 3) - reward

- Escaped a zombie infested city, defeated a crippled but still formidable Fomorian smuggler, his beholder gauth lacky and a few spriggans. This required the help of said ally (level 4) - reward

- Infiltrated an Orc encampment, destroyed most of the forces with sabotage and poison, killed the chieftain and shaman and then were left to face a red dragon. They had no resources left so they got to talk to a dead dragon spirit that wanted said red dragon out of what used to be its lair. It granted some of its power to them and (level 5) - reward and DM caveate

In every case the level felt like a sign of achievement and significant improvement to the PCs. They had time to reflect on their achievements, take powers and feats that worked for their character concept, not an upcoming encounter or creature type. In the last case it was a story driven choice that allowed them to face a foe they could not have downed on their own. They had reached the end of the adventuring day already, had few healing surges and no daily powers. I could have tossed the dragon encounter but everyone wanted to take it down.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

I find this method works really well, with or without XP. Handing out APs in our games is even more significant since we have a few other houserules affecting them as well.

The modification we made is that APs don't reset after an extended rest; you can continue to accumulate them, but if you run out, you don't automatically get one back either. It becomes a decision point to use them or not. Getting one as a reward feels rewarding.

Every level-up you get one per-tier, and one per milestone, as usual. We started doing it this way a couple months ago and have handed one out at a rate of not-quite-one-per session.

Yep this works really nicely. I allow other things with my AP, though they can't keep saving them from session to session. I usually give them 1-2 at the beginning of each session and they have the chance to earn more at my discretion. I don't take them away for extended rests during the session either, it's theirs for the whole of the session.

I'd give you exp for the comment, but apparently I've given too much out already

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Yep this works really nicely. I allow other things with my AP, though they can't keep saving them from session to session. I usually give them 1-2 at the beginning of each session and they have the chance to earn more at my discretion. I don't take them away for extended rests during the session either, it's theirs for the whole of the session.

I'd give you exp for the comment, but apparently I've given too much out already

We have to keep them persistent from session to session because a lot of times, we spend the whole session doing RP, so it would be a waste. Sometimes our games move s-l-o-w-ly :/

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

Valid point Nemesis, that's why I just start my players off with 1-2 every session w/o any holdover. I have a feeling that if I allowed holdover they'd start to horde them to try to gank one of my BBEGs using the APs that I've given out throughout the sessions. It makes them use their APs each session to nice effect and they know that they have a chance at getting more during play so they don't horde until the last encounter of the night either.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Valid point Nemesis, that's why I just start my players off with 1-2 every session w/o any holdover. I have a feeling that if I allowed holdover they'd start to horde them to try to gank one of my BBEGs using the APs that I've given out throughout the sessions. It makes them use their APs each session to nice effect and they know that they have a chance at getting more during play so they don't horde until the last encounter of the night either.

Yeah, that's a concern. We ended up keeping the 'one AP per encounter' rule for that reason. Though, I do believe we still allow more than one per encounter if you "cash them in" for other things (another houserule).