Leveling Characters

[Henry]

I love the concept of training, but in play it tends to be a real drag for me and mine. We used to do the training thing back in AD&D, but in some instances it just doesn't make sense - do you always need to train when gaining more slots of the same level? When gaining a feat that gives you a +1 to hit, or a bonus to skills?

I would love to see more rules done with things like Martial and Arcane Academies, though. It's one area where I LOVE what 4E D&D did with it -- basically giving you the equivalent of a minor daily magic item if you stuck out the training in the given fighter school or whatnot. It was interspersed with minor quests you did for the trainer or sensei, the training serving as your "reward" for doing so. Instead of just getting "better" at something everyone else did, you got a special limited-use ability that few or no one else had, not even others of your same profession/class.

 

[HalfordAskold]

I still have to adamantly disagree with this assessment. Yes you'd be trained at first with the gun, but after the initial training it takes years of practice to hone your skill, not years in the classroom listening to an instructor. I think of these characters that we play in RPGs as heroes, they are the best of the best, they are the smartest, fastest, and most powerful of people in the world. They advance quickly when they see something done, they practice constantly whether it be against each other sparring or whether it be against enemies they fight along their journeys.

A rogue for example would know the basics, he'd have a small knowledge base to work off of and from there he'd hone his skill with PRACTICE (or in other words skill challenges via his thievery checks). This gives him more time to develop his skill, notice other nuances that he hasn't seen before and really get a feel for the new traps, perhaps during the evenings at camp he is thinking over what he's seen and is practicing with making new traps/devices. Maybe he's part of a guild in a city adventure and the other rogues are giving him simple pointers during the "downtime." However you want to look at it, he needs not formal schooling or training to become better at his craft. He needs the experience, ala experience points, meaning he's done what he needs to via his fighting skills, his trap detection, and his trap dismantling to gain the next level of knowledge and that next "level" up.

The same goes with each and every class, they are practicing what they've learned throughout their careers in the adventuring world and gaining knowledge/experience throughout their time there. They develop their own skill-sets based on these experiences and hone their own unique styles to fit it whether they are feats or powers, prayers or sword techniques.

And I will also adamantly disagree. Even in the military you have to re-qualify. Whether you are in a front line unit or not. They train. Counter argument would be as a PC you would always be training... except you also get XP for figuring things out, diplomacy, etc. How does that give you experience in swinging your sword? And yes, while the Sorcerer does magically get spells, I also remember the original D & D as stating the Magic User starts life with X amount of spells. To get more he needed to trade with other wizards, or find scrolls he could copy into his spell book. Counter argument, this isn't D & D.

What so far people have indicated is that they don't do this. I remember reading somewhere, maybe in a Dragon, about only training when you gain. Like when you get a new Feat.

Hey, every one has a different style. I was just looking for other people's ideas. Not just tell me they don't do it and that they don't like it. I would like to hear from anyone who does.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

I think you are failing to take into account that these are heroes. They are the best of the best in everything they do. A lot of them go on to save the world, travel to different planes, and become gods. I can see your point in schooling to a certain degree, but what I can't wrap my mind around is like a level 19 character having to go to school to learn a new technique when he reaches level 20 in a pathfinder game. By this time, he's more powerful than pretty much anyone in the world, who is going to teach him how to "swing his sword" in a different way that he hasn't already seen or figured out for himself? The experience in the adventuring world and untold encounters with strange beings, mystical creatures, deadly bandits, helpful NPCs, and his own wits have gotten him to where he is. He doesn't need a teacher to advance, he needs the adventuring experience to develop his skills and in the process he advances beyond what he's learned by the classroom, he's developed his own style, his own techniques, he's become a veteran in battle and he knows how to adapt. It's pretty simple when you look at it from this side of the equation. Think about how he got there, role play-wise and keep an open mind to how/why he advanced, what he had to go through to get there in his life.

 

[SkredlitheOgre]

When my characters level in between sessions and still on an adventure, I look at it as retroactive training that happens off-screen once they are back to civilization. The only time I change this is when someone wants to use something from a splatbook that they wouldn't normally have access to. At that point, I make then roll Diplomacy to see if they can find someone who will teach them whatever it is. If so, then great. If not, then they can't use it.

One DM I used to play with made detailed notes about XP, including breakdowns of the five-player group for things like what if only four (or three, two, and even one) of the five were in the fight when the thing/enemy/group died. He then made us roleplay the finding of someone and asking them to train us, especially for new feats. That was fine, except that we had to do that for every level. It especially sucked for the fighter, who got all of the bonus feats.

I could see, if you wanted to do it this way, have the characters find someone to train them in whatever and do that the first time they level, but after that, unless it's something off the wall, just assume that they've trained and gained whatever ability it is.

 

[paradox42]

While my campaigns were running (and while the PCs were still mortals), I used a "sleep on it" rule- meaning that, a character could get enough XP to go up a level, but that level's benefits would not actually be gained until after the character got a full night's rest. If that rest was interrupted, oops, no level (not that this happened often).

If you want a "realism" explanation for this, the simplest one is that sleep (and specifically, dreaming) has been shown scientifically to increase learning retention rates in many, many studies over the last few decades. And what about Elves and Thri-Kreen and other races that don't sleep, you ask? [*SMACK!*] That's why it works, shut your face, I'm the DM.

At some point, realism must bow to mechanics; this is a game, after all. The above system worked quite well for us, and several times led to some extra dramatic tension in the ongoing plot to boot.

 

[Herobizkit]

Play GURPS. They have all sorts of rules for training.

 

[Scott DeWar]

I have played in games with both ends of the spectrum, and I have to say that when I am constantly forking out gold for training and never for the advancement of a character -even for such amenities as a home- it got frustrating. To be in the middle of a dungeon and needing training to learn a new spell to defeat a puzzle on a previous level was down and out right irritating.

IMHO

 

[Agamon]

I don't like training rules either. Handwaving learning something new can be a bit jarring if thought about, however (hey, my rogue has a level of druid now!).

In Advanced HackMaster, there's going to be a rule where you get bonus BPs if you train. If think I'll house rule that to say if you can explain how you learned whatever it is you're increasing at level gain, you get the bouns.

Not sure how to emulate that in PF, though. Obviously with APs, for which PF is famous, the adventures often assume level gain mid-adventure; taking a time-out to train is pretty much out of the question, so on-the-job training makes the most sense.

 

[Mad Hamish]

On the whole real world training versus experience side of things.
The importance of the two varies a lot depending on what you're doing, how much things change and what your level of expertise is. As you get better at something it becomes less training and more guided practice.

There's a reference to the armed forces needing to re-qualify but let's not forget that the armed forces are extremely large organizations with large disparities in ability and drive just down to the sheer number of people involved (and also that a lot of armed forces people are not out on the front end involved in combat) so they have some one size fits all rules to ensure that minimum proficiency/fitness etc are maintained.

Also my understanding is that a lot of the training is
a) busy work so that people have something to do
b) designed around maintenance of equipment and learning to use new equipment

historically it's always been the case that combat experienced groups of soldiers perform much better than people who haven't got combat exposure no matter how much training the new group has.

I understand that a pretty low percentage of fighter pilots survived their first couple of minutes of dogfighting in WWII but if you survived that you had a good chance of coming back from a lot of missions.

In game terms training can be a real pain and the GM needs to decide how he's going to handle things. Back in 2nd ed days I had a dual classed character who lost a lot of xp because she kept qualifying for a level but needed time to train and the rest of the party wanted to keep going.
How do you deal with people being ready to level in the middle of an adventure miles from civilization?
Who do you find to train a level 17 wizard?
How do you explain leveled monsters?
How much does it cost a Gunslinger to train considering the price of bullets?

How long do you want people to take to train?
What happens when their enemies attack them during training?

Now there are situations in various game systems where training could make a lot of sense (Earthdawn springs to mind as an example, gaining initiation in Shadowrun, learning to pilot a spaceship or a car...)
but in general it puts things on hold for not much benefit.

 

[SlyDoubt]

Cool discussion!

In my mind since people actually develop at really incremental rates for the most part leveling up is just a nice and easy way to package all that together at once. Generally my players have leveled up at the end of a session or at a point at which they can take a break. Certainly leveling up takes up a lot of time (at least for my group who want to look over options again and such) so I think it's best to try and design adventures with plenty of room for that.

To each their own. Though I do think the adventure IS the learning since "real"world experience beats everything the fighter might do to a wood and straw dummy at some school.