D&D 5E Levels 1-4 are "Training Wheels?"

[Crimson Longinus]

Sometimes people make milestone leveling into level based on story or when the DM feels like it. I wouldn’t want to play in a game like that.

That's what I do. XP and milestones are pretty arbitrary anyway, so I can't be bothered with them.

 

[payn]

That's what I do. XP and milestones are pretty arbitrary anyway, so I can't be bothered with them.

Yeah pretty much. If you say exactly when they will get the milestone it effects the decisions. I just want them to act as the characters and take actions on what they feel is interesting. Though, its fair to mention they were really bad about XP points in the past leading their behavior.

 

[Mordhau]

A lot of people no longer use XP and instead use some variation of optional milestone leveling rule.

I haven't used XP for a few editions now, the game works just fine.

Yes. That's well known and obvious but utterly irrelevant to the point I was making,.

 

[Lyxen]

Yeah the 5E DMG has the same guidance as the 4E pg 42. It is just hidden in the traps section.

Not at all. It's in "Running the Game", "Using Ability Scores", "Difficulty Classes", so honestly not only is it not hidden at all, it's really at the right place.

Look at a certain spells that create effects that match what is happening in fiction. In your example, perhaps you can use the effects of Grease or find similar spell that creates the same effect. When in doubt, you can always fall back to granting Advantage or Disadvantage on actions.

Indeed, that's the exact way to think in 5e, simple and quick.

The most important thing about making these rulings is to provide clear and logical consequences to the players. If your rulings are sensical and clear you can't be cheating.

In any case, the DM cannot be cheating since he makes up the rules anway, but I completely agree that if they make sense, they will never cause a problem.

The second most important thing is to make these rulings comparable to just attacking and doing damage.

That, on the other hand, I disagree with. If the action is nonsensical, it should not be doing anything significant. But if it's clever or really well suited to the situation, it should provide way more than this. This is really why I did not like a large part of the 4e page 42 of the DMG, because - for the usual balance reasons of 4e - it normalised everything. After that, it's all a matter of taste, but this is where you get a perfect example of structure vs. openness. To each his own, some people will like the structure of 4e telling you what the damage is, as for me I prefer the openness of 5e which leaves the DM totally free to arbitrate.

 

[Lyxen]

For me it depends on the way it is setup. I don’t mind milestone leveling if there are clear and understandable milestones that I can use to make intelligent choices for my character.

Sometimes people make milestone leveling into level based on story or when the DM feels like it. I wouldn’t want to play in a game like that.

Why ? Intelligent choices have significant consequences directly in terms of story, or rewards/consideration from NPCs, etc. They are still rewarding.

 

[Monayuris]

Not at all. It's in "Running the Game", "Using Ability Scores", "Difficulty Classes", so honestly not only is it not hidden at all, it's really at the right place.

That section has basic DCs for challenge. But, in the traps section of the DMG there is a more detailed set of tables that include expected Save DCs, Attack Bonuses, and damage expressions for minor, setback, and deadly traps.

These tables can be used for any kind of adhoc ruling.

Indeed, that's the exact way to think in 5e, simple and quick.



In any case, the DM cannot be cheating since he makes up the rules anway, but I completely agree that if they make sense, they will never cause a problem.



That, on the other hand, I disagree with. If the action is nonsensical, it should not be doing anything significant. But if it's clever or really well suited to the situation, it should provide way more than this. This is really why I did not like a large part of the 4e page 42 of the DMG, because - for the usual balance reasons of 4e - it normalised everything. After that, it's all a matter of taste, but this is where you get a perfect example of structure vs. openness. To each his own, some people will like the structure of 4e telling you what the damage is, as for me I prefer the openness of 5e which leaves the DM totally free to arbitrate.

I was referring more to the idea that you should get cool effect in addition to damage and without any penalty. If you want creative, swashbuckling actions from the players, they have to be better than just a basic normal roll to hit and damage. Once you start layering penalties and having the effects be less than substantial no one will do anything but attack and roll damage.

 

[Monayuris]

Why ? Intelligent choices have significant consequences directly in terms of story, or rewards/consideration from NPCs, etc. They are still rewarding.

Mainly because in my opinion, D&D isn't just about story. There are some games that are story games (like Fiasco for one) that exist for the sake of creating a story and the fun in the process is its own reward. But D&D is not like that.

You can tell stories with D&D, but it is also a game that has other aspects. It has elements of tactical wargaming, elements of resource management, elements of problem solving; and these are equal parts of the game.

I want the reward system of the game to reflect my skill at playing the game in all of its component parts.

 

[Lyxen]

That section has basic DCs for challenge. But, in the traps section of the DMG there is a more detailed set of tables that include expected Save DCs, Attack Bonuses, and damage expressions for minor, setback, and deadly traps.
These tables can be used for any kind of adhoc ruling.

There is also a section for improvising damage in the "Running the Game" / "Combat" section of the game, actually, never used the trap one for anything else than creating traps.

I was referring more to the idea that you should get cool effect in addition to damage and without any penalty. If you want creative, swashbuckling actions from the players, they have to be better than just a basic normal roll to hit and damage. Once you start layering penalties and having the effects be less than substantial no one will do anything but attack and roll damage.

I agree with that in principle, but the actions, even swashbuckling ones, have to make some sense, even if it's in "action swashbuckling" more than in reality.

 

[Lyxen]

Mainly because in my opinion, D&D isn't just about story. There are some games that are story games (like Fiasco for one) that exist for the sake of creating a story and the fun in the process is its own reward. But D&D is not like that.

You can tell stories with D&D, but it is also a game that has other aspects. It has elements of tactical wargaming, elements of resource management, elements of problem solving; and these are equal parts of the game.

I want the reward system of the game to reflect my skill at playing the game in all of its component parts.

Well, there are many skills involved, for one, and surviving and having a nice story, or just being the hero of a fight and having people praising your skill(s) (in and out of character) are already nice rewards in themselves. XPs are very artificial, and don't mean much actually because they are not an universal currency, they are valid only at your table anyway.

 

[Lanefan]

Development is really important, I’m not sure that has to mean leveling up. Maybe it’s worth considering what other ways of developing your character there is?

--- items, gear, and possessions for development in in-field adventuring prowess
--- --- research and training, ditto
--- wealth and influence for non-adventuring social development, can easily leads to adventure hooks also
--- stronghold, base, or guildhouse for development within the setting:
--- --- leads to political development like it or not as you've just made yourself a local or regional power
--- --- leads to adventuring-related development as you attract followers, henches, and recruits
--- --- can lead to adventure hooks as people hear of you and bring you their problems
--- romance, intrigue, rivalry, etc. for personality and character development

How's that for a start?