D&D 5E Levels 1-4 are "Training Wheels?"

[Lyxen]

So if someone says 5E is flawed, you're allowed to tell them that they are just DMing wrong and that they don't know what they're talking about? What kind of belligerent stance is that to take?

If someone uses totally flimsy and inconsistent excuses just to reiterate that 5e is flawed (not even in their opinion, or for their style of play, just inherently flawed) in a thread that has nothing to do with that, it deserves a bit of teasing, that's all. And it's no more belligerent that the attitude that you are having on this thread, where you attack right and left without even touching the subject itself.

Oh, sorry, you did touch the subject, in a very interesting manner (not!), when someone said "Rather than someone writing pages of backstory knowing nothing about the other characters, instead they develop back story together. To me, it's the funnest and most creative part of the campaign.", you replied "So training wheels", that was your only contribution to the thread in how many posts ?

 

[Umbran]

Mod note:
This thread is now becoming a discussion about how to discuss - while that may be a worthy topic, it is not what this thread was really intended to be about.

Please, folks, bring it back on track. Thanks.

 

[J.Quondam]

just saw mod warning.
deleted.

 

[Shardstone]

To return back to the topic at hand, yes, levels 1-4 are training wheels. That isn't a bad thing at all, and I think a lot of people in this thread have negative connotations when using this phrase. So, a better turn of phrase would be that levels 1-4 are the "getting started" levels for D&D.

In those four levels, you get all the basic features needed for your fantasy experience, as well as a chance to get better in one direction or to attain a feat of choice. This is very much by design. The new player experience requires levels 1-4 to be simple, guided, and well-parsed; higher levels do not have such requirements, and the highest levels have barely received any thought in regards of features beyond what is needed to mechanically bolster what was learned in the early game.

There is really no valid argument for otherwise. This doesn't mean you can't enjoy levels 1-4, and it doesn't mean that them being the training wheels/getting started levels makes them mutually exclusive from having a very enjoyable game. As a consequence of these levels being for getting started, a lot of common stories take on new nuance when played out within this tier. Goblins and bandits provide a significant threat, which introduces a new texture to the game that is lost when your significant threats become dragons and liches later on, or even Chimera and young dragons in just the next tier.

Levels 1-2, level 3, and level 4 all provide different stages of this getting started experience. You dip your feet in the water, get to make a deeper choice, and then get to solidify your direction, and then from there on its just a treadmill of features and power increasing. So, by definition, these levels are training wheels.

 

[Plaguescarred]

I don't find L3-4 to be training level. L3 is a capstone for most classes where they get to choose a subclass and L4 when most characters can take a feat or ASI for the first time. L5 is more a power burst since classes usually get Extra Attack and Cantrip damage bump for the first time. So the game doesn't start there, i'd say it gets better.

Technically speaking, i don't even think L1-2 to be training levels neither. When a character starts it's adventuring carrer, training is already done and none is further required to advance in his or her class. They begin a L1 and by L2 they already start improving their abilities as they all get something.

When a character begin adventuring, training is over unless the DM say otherwise.

 

[Shardstone]

I don't find L3-4 to be training level. L3 is a capstone for most classes where they get to choose a subclass and L4 when most characters can take a feat or ASI for the first time. L5 is more a power burst since classes usually get Extra Attack and Cantrip damage bump for the first time. So the game doesn't start there, i'd say it gets better.

technically, i don't even find L1-2 to be training level. When a character starts it's adventuring carrer, training is already done and none is further necessary to advance in his or her class. They begin a L1 and by L2 they already start improving their abilities as they all get something.

I think your definition of "training level" is misaligned with the OP of the thread. I am not the OP, so I may be wrong here! But training doesn't mean, for example, "training to get better," its training at playing Dungeons & Dragons. You get a slow drip of impactful features, with each feature changing your playstyle, and designed in a way so as not to overburden the new player with knowledge.

By definition, this is training wheels.

 

[Lyxen]

In addition to the fact that I don't like the condescension that the use of the words "training wheels" implies, I also don't even understand how it explains the way some people play (I'm not playing about people just playing at levels 1-5 as they are playing later, not making any special difference).

"Training Wheels" would imply that there is some sort of special mechanism in place that makes playing easier, like actually training wheels on a bike, or lateral rails in bowling, etc. It's not even the case, so it seems totally inappropriate to me.

Now, assuming that this is about technical skill (which is already debatable as being the only point of interest in D&D), one could indeed say that, just as when skiing, you go for more and more difficult pistes as your level increases, levels 1-5 could maybe be considered "green piste". But people have shown that it's not the case, actually it's harder to survive at level 1 (and maybe 2) than most levels thereafter.

And when you take into account the fact that D&D is not only a technical fighting game, but a roleplaying game where characters exist and have adventures from level 1, interact with the world, between themselves and with other NPCs as soon as the game starts, I really don't see what makes the first levels different.

So the metaphor is for me totally inappropriate.

 

[Mercurius]

As others have said, it really depends upon the group, but I generally prefer starting at 1st level, because it gives the players a smoother ramp into growing into their characters. I just make level advancement more rapid for the first few levels, something like:

1st level: 1 session
2nd level: 2 sessions
3rd and 4th level: 3 sessions each
5th level and up: 4 sessions each

So they tend to reach 3rd level after the 3rd session and 5th level after 9th session, and then it averages 1 level every four sessions after.

 

[Al2O3]

Unless I skimmed too fast, the following has been implied but not explicitly linked to pages in the books:
In "Tiers of play", PHB p. 15, the first tier of play (levels 1-4) describes the player characters as "effectively apprentice adventurers", facing threats that "are relatively minor, usually posing a danger to local farmsteads or villages".

I might not agree with describing it as "training wheels", but I guess even the PHB is close enough.

I think the DMG was quoted early in the thread, so I'll just add that DMG (p. 37) describes the characters in level 1-4 as "local heroes", while at level 5-10 they are "heroes of the realm".

Edit: added a "not" in the first sentence.

 

[Plaguescarred]

I think your definition of "training level" is misaligned with the OP of the thread. I am not the OP, so I may be wrong here! But training doesn't mean, for example, "training to get better," its training at playing Dungeons & Dragons. You get a slow drip of impactful features, with each feature changing your playstyle, and designed in a way so as not to overburden the new player with knowledge.

By definition, this is training wheels.

Training is not L1-2 its L1-20 if you are not a seasoned D&D player. While the first levels are easier for inexperienced players, they learn and take experience playing it wether they play a L1 or L6 character.