D&D 5E Life Cleric Multiclass armor prof

[Celtavian]

Incantations are based on class level. Thirsting blade for example. Before the errata it was only "5th level", and no surprise some people did interpret it as total character level. Now with the cleric, I strongly believe the same people are claiming that in the cleric entry, level clearly means class level. As I said, some people read ambiguous things in the most favourable way (for them, of course).

Can you point to a reason why it wouldn't be class level? It is the nature of people to pursue the best possible benefit for what they want to do. You can't fault them for that when something is unclear. It would make it easier for everyone if the designers wrote things in a clear manner that cannot be confused. It wouldn't have been hard to include a sentence stating "Prerequisites for invocations on based on warlock level." Just as it would have been easy to write domains that provide proficiencies using, "You only gain this proficiency if you choose this domain at character level 1."

Then again it seems fairly unimportant given there is only a small gain in power from the proficiency and the cleric doesn't synergize well with many other classes save perhaps the bard. Not many bards I've seen like to wear heavy armor because it messes up their Stealth.

I understand that from a style standpoint it's kind of a ridiculous rule. A cleric getting heavy armor over a fighter or paladin doesn't seem very appropriate. As far as balance goes, it doesn't give them much. Look at all the limitations that go with wearing heavy armor. You need a minimum of 15 strength. To be a multiclass cleric you need a minimum of 13 wisdom. So you make a bard or wizard with a 15 strength and 13 wisdom and a 15 charisma or intelligence? Then do you dump stat dex and con? Is strength more important to a bard or wizard than dex and con? I don't see the great value from getting Heavy armor from being a life cleric. When I planned to take it as a bard, I was looking for the bonus healing. I was never planning to use heavy armor. I could care less about heavy armor. My strength was never going to be 15. I think most people think that way as well.

Cleric doesn't synergize well as far heavy armor goes with other classes. Is your resistance to this rule a style reason like Bold Italic or a balance reason? If it is a balance reason, can you perhaps tell me what class combinations you think synergize well with the cleric that will also get to wear heavy armor given the stat requirements it would take to make the combination work?

 

[spectacle]

Incantations are based on class level. Thirsting blade for example. Before the errata it was only "5th level", and no surprise some people did interpret it as total character level. Now with the cleric, I strongly believe the same people are claiming that in the cleric entry, level clearly means class level. As I said, some people read ambiguous things in the most favourable way (for them, of course).

Such harsh accusations should be backed by fact, not belief, no matter how "strong". Do you have any quotes to prove that the same people are arguing the way you claim?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Can you point to a reason why it wouldn't be class level?

I could not. Some people could. It was errated. Just took that example that the same text: "at x level" was read as "character level" in the warlock case and "class level" in the cleric case. Whichever was better for them.

edit: your post was getting longer while I was typing it seems.

Fairness reason, and logical reason. If the fighter can´t get it, the cleric shouldn´t get it and more. If you need to train for years to wera it as fighter, why should you get it for free as cleric.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Such harsh accusations should be backed by fact, not belief, no matter how "strong". Do you have any quotes to prove that the same people are arguing the way you claim?

No. Sorry. Maybe not the same people. But there were people claiming both. Most prominently in the now shut down character optimization board on the wotc site.

 

[Celtavian]

What would be a great class build as a multiclass cleric given the stat requirements to make the cleric and wear heavy armor? Whenever I've optimized a cleric multiclass, I was more concerned with the powers they get like the bonus healing and domain spells. The heavy armor was always pretty low on my list because of the strength requirement.

 

[Li Shenron]

What would be a great class build as a multiclass cleric given the stat requirements to make the cleric and wear heavy armor? Whenever I've optimized a cleric multiclass, I was more concerned with the powers they get like the bonus healing and domain spells. The heavy armor was always pretty low on my list because of the strength requirement.

Well it's not strictly a requirement... you get a -10 speed if you are not strong enough, but you can still wear it and get the AC bonus, and cast spells if you're proficient.

 

[Celtavian]

Well it's not strictly a requirement... you get a -10 speed if you are not strong enough, but you can still wear it and get the AC bonus, and cast spells if you're proficient.

-10 speed is a huge disadvantage in this game, especially if you plan to play a class that isn't set up to tank. As well as Disadvantage on Stealth.

I repeat once again, I'd like to see examples of all these cleric multiclass combinations that are not balanced. Cleric is one of those classes that isn't often cited as a power multiclass combination. Usually clerics are most powerful being clerics. The stat combinations and abilities just don't synergize very well.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

-10 speed is a huge disadvantage in this game, especially if you plan to play a class that isn't set up to tank. As well as Disadvantage on Stealth.

I repeat once again, I'd like to see examples of all these cleric multiclass combinations that are not balanced. Cleric is one of those classes that isn't often cited as a power multiclass combination. Usually clerics are most powerful being clerics. The stat combinations and abilities just don't synergize very well.

I 100% agree with you. Heavy armor does not synergize well with most non heavy armor users. I would say however, a blade warlock might synergize well with a cleric that has heavy armor proficiency. On the other hand, fighter first should still be the best. I could make a case for the valor bard who might also benefit from heavy armor proficiency and here maybe going cleric first and then bard would be a good Idea, because of the better saving throw proficiencies and you start with good armor.
But actually, I don´t want someone to dip life cleric to gain armor proficiency especially when it slows him down so much just for a few points of AC. And for my games it is just theorycrafting and has no relevance in game, i guess. And I will say no if someone tries it and that´s it.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

For those asking for the "official ruling," here's a relevant Twitter conversation.

The specific tweet from Crawford that matters is, "The intent is that a level prerequisite in a warlock invocation refers to warlock level." The PHB was errata'd to add numerous references to this after the first printing. Previously, the phrasing had been ambiguous--clearly you could only gain or change Invocations by taking a Warlock level, but the original prerequisites simply listed "level X" rather than "Warlock level X" (if there were any such prereqs). The rewritten Invocation sections make it explicit that this refers to Warlock levels.

This gives at least some credence to the idea that the intent of the ambiguous passages is to refer to class level, rather than character level. Since most subclasses employ the "when you choose this [subclass] at level [N]..." phrasing, the ruling as presented by BoldItalic requires us to treat (near-)identical phrasing as though it had a different intent solely depending on whether N does or does not equal 1. This seems like an unwarranted assumption, given the Warlock invocation intent despite the complete lack of text indicating that intent.

Though I still haven't seen a substantive response about the Cleric bonus proficiencies which don't say "when you choose this domain at level 1." Unless it was said and I missed it? I have been known to do that

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I don't understand why a life cleric wouldn't gain heavy armour proficiency, it's gained through choosing an archetype, not through base class proficiencies. If a cleric chose their domain at level 2 would people rule that someone who multiclassed into cleric, and chose the life domain at cleric level 2, shouldn't gain heavy armour proficiency?

Yes. Most probably I would. I would not grant bonus proficiencies from a nulticlass if it is called bonus proficiency. The valor bard level 3 proficiencies seem more problematic than the cleric proficiencies because you may end up being able to use every martial weapon but not every simple weapon if you came from wizard...