D&D 5E Life Without "the Gods" or Playing D&D without the DDG.

[Viking Bastard]

In godless settings, I apply a similar concept. The energy that is behind all magic is an alignment neutral magic-stuff. How it forms in reality depends on how it is channeled. In the case of "divine" (good and evil) it is the will of the user that defines what sort of form is takes. "Gods" are the will of the faithful shaping the magical reality of the universe. They're as strong and as capable as their followers are numerous and faith is strong but they aren't "real". Some "gods" have metagame this system in order to perpetuate their "existence". There's some neat tricks to this system which are somewhat existential and difficult to explain in a text post.

I have always kind of taken this to be the D&D default, on the one hand because my introduction to the game through the "god neutral" BECMI/RC and on the other hand because of my early introduction to Planescape, which I immediately interpreted this way. Gods exist because we believe them to exist, so all gods are motivated to spread their message because otherwise they would stop existing. Sometimes gods will create worlds and populate them with people, to basically serve as a power generator for their continued existence.

The Outer Planes as a whole are what we believe them to be, but they have always been as we believe them to be and they always will be--except we used to believe they were different, and back then they had always been like that and were always going to be like that. In the future, our ideas will have changed and so will the Outer Planes--their present, their past, and their future.

Or such. Wibbly-wobbly.

 

[Viking Bastard]

Clerics, though, are not connected to any of those at all, although they may align themselves with such powers if it suits them. Clerics are the chosen/imbued champions of the Cosmic Functions, astral concepts given existence by the minds of mortals.

To expand upon this, I base my current cosmology loosely on the Mystara cosmology--there are several layered dimensions, each encompassing multiple planes:

• The 1st dimension is The Source, it's the Singularity that everything else is a projection of--many believe this dimension to be/contain the One True God or World-Soul. This dimension is not knowable, it's more theoretical than anything else--though some have claimed to have accessed it, claiming it was like seeing everything at once: the past, the present and the future of everywhere.
• The 2nd dimension is The Weave, it's the blueprint of the universe--this dimension cannot be physically accessed, as mortal beings require at least 3 dimensions to exist in, but it can be manipulated or, through divination, read/gazed upon.
• The 3rd dimension is The Prime, which contains the building blocks of the multiverse, in the form of the various Elemental Planes--which can be accessed, but are timeless (much like the classic D&D Astral Plane).
• The 4th dimension is The Ethereal, where all the main action happens--encompassing both Time and Space.
• The 5th dimension is The Astral, which house the manifestation(s) of mortal beliefs, infinitely branching into new planes, and reality is shaped by the willpower of the masses (or the powerful).
• Then there are theoretical higher dimensions, which may explain the Far Realm.

Dimensions 1-3 contain the Inner Planes and Dimensions 5+ the Outer Planes. In this model, Arcane magic works by tapping/manipulating the Inner Planes--by hacking the Matrix, so to speak--while Divine magic works through the Outer Planes--the power of belief.

The only class I have difficulty working into this system are Druids, who are divine casters per RAW, but seem Arcane according to this model.

 

[Kinneus]

I intend to do a 5e Dark Sun game soon. Gods are necessarily absent in the setting. My solution? Paladins are Clerics are not allowed. Problem solved. Just avoid some explicitly-divine magic items, and gods are completely gone from your campaign. Everything else is just window dressing.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I intend to do a 5e Dark Sun game soon. Gods are necessarily absent in the setting. My solution? Paladins are Clerics are not allowed. Problem solved. Just avoid some explicitly-divine magic items, and gods are completely gone from your campaign. Everything else is just window dressing.

I would be sad to play a Dark Sun game without Sorcerer-Kings and Templars, Elemental Clerics, or druids. That only leaves preservers/defilers and psionicists in the setting.

 

[Li Shenron]

How do you play D&D without deities?

I don't see the slightest problem with doing so.

I agree more or less with all that you wrote in your first post. You don't have to change any rules of the game including Clerics abilities if you don't have deities in your fantasy settings.

 

[Kinneus]

I would be sad to play a Dark Sun game without Sorcerer-Kings and Templars, Elemental Clerics, or druids. That only leaves preservers/defilers and psionicists in the setting.

Huh? Of course there would still be Sorcerer-Kings and Templars. I don't get it, were those roles traditionally filled by paladins and clerics in earlier editions? Because in 4e, Templars were either warlocks or some other class, with "templar" understood to be a social/societal role. Sorcerer-kings are... well... sorcerers or wizards.

I will admit that this strategy (which is essentially the same strategy 4e used in its incarnation of Dark Sun ["no divine classes allowed"]) means there's no Elemental Clerics, but I honestly don't see that as a huge loss, since that always felt like a part of DS that was rather tacked on (to me at least).

But really, where do you get "DS without Sorcerer-Kings" from "DS without clerics or paladins"?

 

[Mercule]

The only class I have difficulty working into this system are Druids, who are divine casters per RAW, but seem Arcane according to this model.

Druids are often a sticking point, for me, when I think too hard about D&D magic. I think it's because the class is intended to represent the shamanistic/pagan casters who more reflect the earthly traditions of combining what D&D splits into two. I.e. earthly magic rarely makes the distinction between divine and arcane.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

But really, where do you get "DS without Sorcerer-Kings" from "DS without clerics or paladins"?

In the original AD&D 2nd edition boxed set, templars are priests of the decadent sorcerer-kings and -queens. Their spells come from them, and if the queen dies all her templars lose their priestly powers, though not necessarily their legal powers.

I had no idea 4E rewrote Dark Sun and discarded that notion. Sad thing.

 

[Kinneus]

In the original AD&D 2nd edition boxed set, templars are priests of the decadent sorcerer-kings and -queens. Their spells come from them, and if the queen dies all her templars lose their priestly powers, though not necessarily their legal powers.

I had no idea 4E rewrote Dark Sun and discarded that notion. Sad thing.

They're exactly the same thing in 4e, they're just not "class: cleric" or "class: paladin." The SKs still granted their magical powers to templars; the powers were just arcane as opposed to divine. Warlocks made good templars foe this reason, with the various sorcerer-kings standing in for patrons.

You can really save your fake, condescending sadness for those who played 4e Dark Sun. We did just fine, but thank you for your concern.

My point is, if you want a totally agnostic campaign world, it's as simple as saying "no cleric or paladin PCs allowed." Bam. Problem solved.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

You can really save your fake, condescending sadness for those who played 4e Dark Sun.

I wasn't picking a fight. Nostalgia is not condescending. Gam zeh y'avor.