Lifesense and Mirror Image

Legildur

First Post
Encounter on Friday night where the level 9 party encountered 4 spectres and a dread wraith. Wizard was caught in a bad spot and cast Mirror Image to protect himself from the dread wraith.

The question was later asked (after the combat), does the dread wraith's Lifesense ability ignore Mirror Image? I think it does, but would appreciate a better informed opinion. The relevant parts of the v3.5 SRD are quoted below:

Lifesense (Su): A dread wraith notices and locates living creatures within 60 feet, just as if it possessed the blindsight ability. It also senses the strength of their life force automatically, as if it had cast deathwatch.

Blindsight (Ex): This ability is similar to blindsense, but is far more discerning. Using nonvisual senses, such as sensitivity to vibrations, keen smell, acute hearing, or echolocation, a creature with blindsight maneuvers and fights as well as a sighted creature. Invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment are irrelevant, though the creature must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object. The ability’s range is specified in the creature’s descriptive text. The creature usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability. Unless noted otherwise, blindsight is continuous, and the creature need do nothing to use it. Some forms of blindsight, however, must be triggered as a free action. If so, this is noted in the creature’s description. If a creature must trigger its blindsight ability, the creature gains the benefits of blindsight only during its turn.

BLINDSIGHT AND BLINDSENSE
Some creatures have blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a nonvisual sense (or a combination of such senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such sense may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. This ability makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature (though it still can’t see ethereal creatures). This ability operates out to a range specified in the creature description.

- Blindsight never allows a creature to distinguish color or visual contrast. A creature cannot read with blindsight.
- Blindsight does not subject a creature to gaze attacks (even though darkvision does).
- Blinding attacks do not penalize creatures using blindsight.
- Deafening attacks thwart blindsight if it relies on hearing.
- Blindsight works underwater but not in a vacuum.
- Blindsight negates displacement and blur effects.

Mirror Image
Illusion (Figment)
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal; see text
Target: You
Duration: 1 min./level (D)

Several illusory duplicates of you pop into being, making it difficult for enemies to know which target to attack. The figments stay near you and disappear when struck.

Mirror image creates 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total). These figments separate from you and remain in a cluster, each within 5 feet of at least one other figment or you. You can move into and through a mirror image. When you and the mirror image separate, observers can’t use vision or hearing to tell which one is you and which the image. The figments may also move through each other. The figments mimic your actions, pretending to cast spells when you cast a spell, drink potions when you drink a potion, levitate when you levitate, and so on.

Enemies attempting to attack you or cast spells at you must select from among indistinguishable targets. Generally, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. Any successful attack against an image destroys it. An image’s AC is 10 + your size modifier + your Dex modifier. Figments seem to react normally to area spells (such as looking like they’re burned or dead after being hit by a fireball).

While moving, you can merge with and split off from figments so that enemies who have learned which image is real are again confounded.

An attacker must be able to see the images to be fooled. If you are invisible or an attacker shuts his or her eyes, the spell has no effect. (Being unable to see carries the same penalties as being blinded.)
 

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Frankly I think that introducing categories of senses that illusions cannot fool is a bit silly.

That's why I say that illusions that work on sight and sound fool blindsight unless they're specifically listed in the blindsight description. Invisibility, darkness, concealment, blur and displacement are all there. Mirror image is not.

So mirror image works against blindsight.

Lifesense works like blindsight.

Therefore mirror image works against lifesense.
 

Hypersmurf said:
I'd be inclined to say Lifesense would bypass Mirror Image.

Inclined? What's this 'inclined' answer? I've been refreshing deliberately in anticipating that you'd be answering this question, Hyp; given your timezone is close to mine. And I was honestly expecting a more 'rules lawyerish' answer. ;-)

My take is that:

- Lifesense is the combination of Blindsight and Deathwatch;
- Blindsight uses non-visual senses to assist the creature to maneuver and fight as well as a sighted creature;
- Blindsight makes invisibility (Illusion [Glamer] school) and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature;
- Blindsight negates displacement and blur effects (of which Mirror Image is neither);
- Mirror Image is from the Illusion (figment) school of magic.
- A figment creates a false sensation.

These points make me think that Mirror Image can beat Lifesense, but I could easily be convinced otherwise with a sound argument.

Edit: I see that Saeviomagy posted while I was typing and it seems we are on the same wavelength. But that is not to say that we are necessarily correct.
 
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Mirror image's text states that the spell doesn't work against an attacker that has their eyes closed. As a result, creatures not dependent on eye sight at all are not affected by the mirror image spell. Creatures with blindsight remain unaffected by mirror image, as lifesense functions in a way similar to blindsight (no eye sight necessary) then mirror image also does not work against it.
 

Liquidsabre said:
Mirror image's text states that the spell doesn't work against an attacker that has their eyes closed. As a result, creatures not dependent on eye sight at all are not affected by the mirror image spell. Creatures with blindsight remain unaffected by mirror image, as lifesense functions in a way similar to blindsight (no eye sight necessary) then mirror image also does not work against it.

Yeah - strictly, I'd allow Lifesense to beat Mirror Image if you close your eyes.

The precedent is that Mirror Image specifically says that a/ you can't use vision or hearing to distinguish the figments, but b/ if you can't see the images, the spell has no effect.

So if your eyes are open, your hearing is fooled... but if your eyes are closed, your hearing is not fooled.

So I could entertain an argument that Mirror Image will fool Lifesense... until the dread wraith closes his eyes. Just like it fools hearing, until you close your eyes.

-Hyp.
 

Hypersmurf said:
<snip>So if your eyes are open, your hearing is fooled... but if your eyes are closed, your hearing is not fooled.</snip>

I can tell that you enjoyed that part of the argument the best.... :D
 


Hypersmurf said:
Yeah - strictly, I'd allow Lifesense to beat Mirror Image if you close your eyes.

The precedent is that Mirror Image specifically says that a/ you can't use vision or hearing to distinguish the figments, but b/ if you can't see the images, the spell has no effect.

So if your eyes are open, your hearing is fooled... but if your eyes are closed, your hearing is not fooled.

So I could entertain an argument that Mirror Image will fool Lifesense... until the dread wraith closes his eyes. Just like it fools hearing, until you close your eyes.

-Hyp.
I think that's more a flaw in the thinking of whoever wrote the spell - they equated 'seeing' with using eyes and having them open. I think perhaps it should have said what you have above - if the target and his images have total concealment against you, mirror image doesn't affect your attacks. Why? Because you're not using any sort of cue to attack that the mirror image is fooling, so you get the straight 50% miss chance.

However it would still defeat blindsight, because if you're using blindsight, you CAN see and the target and his images don't have concealment. The name is, after all, blindSIGHT.

3.5's entire system of perception is messed up. There's no real classifiers to say what blindsight or tremorsense work on or are defeated by. Blindsight, which is hearing based is defeated by the silence spell for instance. Which blindsights are hearing based? Which are scent based? Apart from lifesense, which are based on some supernatural ability?
 

Saeviomagy said:
I think that's more a flaw in the thinking of whoever wrote the spell...

Well, it's never been the clearest of spells to start with.

It's fairly telling, I think, that it's one of the spells with the most FAQ answers associated with it... most of which bear very little resemblance to what's
written in the PHB!

-Hyp.
 

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