Unearthed Arcana Light, Dark, Underdark - November's Unearthed Arcana

Interesting stuff.

 

[Azurewraith]

I forget, what is the exp requirement to get from 1st to 5th? And how many level 9 encounters would it t take to get them up to 5th.

a few thousand issue would be surviving that one encounter being a stiff fart would kill you

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Last time I checked, role playing your character's background and role playing PC introductions were all part of role playing. The only reason a new PC "poops" (sic) into existence is because the players failed to role play the scenario.

There are many options to raise PCs back that don't rely on one of the party members having that spell option. If you've been playing for 20 years, I'm sure you know all of them. PCs at that high of a level have many resources available to them.

So I gotta ask, in those 20 years, how many high level PCs in your table died for good when the player wanted to keep them alive?

As a PC:
(3.0)I lost Talia and wanted to scream, but there was no way we could raise her we had 0 cleric PCs.
(2e)I lost Grant, Ta'horn, and Vash all in the same campaign... Grant was a chosen of mystra so he should have been raiseable, but he was soul traped, Ta'horn was a barbarian (2e complete book of) that always refused healing, and Vash at 22nd level 2e we had no way to raise...
(3.5)I lost Kazar Free when I knew I was going to die I tried to tank the lich a round or two knowing the cleric could raise dead... then I got hit with disintegrate...no body.

As a DM
(2e) My first D&D game had me give out a set of scrolls of raise dead at some really low level 'just in case' but then they used all three on NPCs, and the very next game session the 11th level cleric got killed.
(2e) A very tragic one... the player started as a human wizard level 1, around level 4 or 5 the party fighter died, and the player decided his character 'found god' and used his super human charisma to become a paladin. He then played 15 levels of said paladin. In a random encounter with a hydra he got killed. The problem was our PC healer was an elf druid/ranger... he didn't even have enough druid levels to reincarnate him.
(3e) I had a player walk out and never come back because his PC died and I wouldn't hand wave a resserction... it was a plan hoping game and the PCs were stuck in darksun. He died at level 19, and there was no way to bring him back.
(3.5) I almost TPKed my whole party in raven loft. the PCs were 14ish level and of the 7 PCs and 2 cohorts that went into the adventure, 3 PCs and 1 cohort (not even one of those PCs) survivied, and had no way to raise there players
(4e) maybe this one shouldn't be on the list, but... A PC worshiped the raven queen, and at epic levels was sent on a quest to find a crystal neckless she wore in life. Another PC had a habit of throwing everything he found into a pouch of platnume (4e magic item) and did so with the neckless without thinking. He was cursed by the goddess and when he next died he didn't come back...and nothing ever could.
(4e) same player different campaign was playing a ranger who liked to scout... at like level 13 or so he went out to scout and died... the PCs didn't have enough gold to raise him, so he stayed dead.

 

[Serpine]

1) come in as a random PC... that the DM draws up from his NPC list...

I've actually had that work well a few times as long as it was player initiated (aka "Hey, can I just take over one the hirelings that is already traveling with us?") Saw a lantern bearer evolve (eventually) into an epic hero that way... If you try to force it on a player though it is almost a guaranteed disaster.

 

[Sacrosanct]

ugh! that was my least favorite set of house rules ever. By mid 3.0 no one I knew was doing them... but we had some doosies in 2e and early 3.0.

5 worst house rules

5) Come in at lowest PC level -1d4
4) Come in at 1st level no matter what
3) Come in 2 levels lower then lowest PC, but with random rolls of magic items, 10% chance per level if you get one roll on the DMG charts
2) Come in at 1st level and no gear, the PCs have to rescue you
and the worst comes in at the last time and the straw that broke the camels back of my group...
1) come in as a random PC... that the DM draws up from his NPC list...


We have a few diamond in the ruff stories, like in 2e when our 9th level fighter died, came in as a half elf Cleric/Wizard/thief 1/1/1 stayed in the back and took combat xp for almost no real contribution, stole 2 magic items when no one was looking, stole the wizard PC spell book, rolled learned all the 1st level spells, then 'pick pocketed' to put it back without anyone noticing... and went up to 2/4/8 because of tracking xp seperatly... then he stole the book again the next night and learned all the 2nd level spells in it, then put it back and woke up the 3rd day adventureing as a 3/5/9 Cleric/Wizard/Thief

Starting out at level 1 is not a house rule. Also, a lot of people actually like it like that.

As a PC:
(3.0)I lost Talia and wanted to scream, but there was no way we could raise her we had 0 cleric PCs.
(2e)I lost Grant, Ta'horn, and Vash all in the same campaign... Grant was a chosen of mystra so he should have been raiseable, but he was soul traped, Ta'horn was a barbarian (2e complete book of) that always refused healing, and Vash at 22nd level 2e we had no way to raise...
(3.5)I lost Kazar Free when I knew I was going to die I tried to tank the lich a round or two knowing the cleric could raise dead... then I got hit with disintegrate...no body.

As a DM
(2e) My first D&D game had me give out a set of scrolls of raise dead at some really low level 'just in case' but then they used all three on NPCs, and the very next game session the 11th level cleric got killed.
(2e) A very tragic one... the player started as a human wizard level 1, around level 4 or 5 the party fighter died, and the player decided his character 'found god' and used his super human charisma to become a paladin. He then played 15 levels of said paladin. In a random encounter with a hydra he got killed. The problem was our PC healer was an elf druid/ranger... he didn't even have enough druid levels to reincarnate him.
(3e) I had a player walk out and never come back because his PC died and I wouldn't hand wave a resserction... it was a plan hoping game and the PCs were stuck in darksun. He died at level 19, and there was no way to bring him back.
(3.5) I almost TPKed my whole party in raven loft. the PCs were 14ish level and of the 7 PCs and 2 cohorts that went into the adventure, 3 PCs and 1 cohort (not even one of those PCs) survivied, and had no way to raise there players
(4e) maybe this one shouldn't be on the list, but... A PC worshiped the raven queen, and at epic levels was sent on a quest to find a crystal neckless she wore in life. Another PC had a habit of throwing everything he found into a pouch of platnume (4e magic item) and did so with the neckless without thinking. He was cursed by the goddess and when he next died he didn't come back...and nothing ever could.
(4e) same player different campaign was playing a ranger who liked to scout... at like level 13 or so he went out to scout and died... the PCs didn't have enough gold to raise him, so he stayed dead.

And these were all high level PCs? Did they not have enough funds to get them raised by that point? Did they not have any number of magical items by that point to do the job?

I'm starting to suspect something. I've been playing for 35 years. I've only had a few PCs make it into the teens. To see you have so many, and so quickly, and to go by your username, I'm guessing you just burned right to epic levels Monty Haul style and thus didn't spend the time most people do to acquire these in game relationships and item acquisitions that would make your problem moot. Extra confusing that someone who powergames would have their biggest issue with high level PCs just showing up anyway to replace a lost one. That's kind of what your entire table is doing by zipping all your characters to high level right off the bat anyway.

All this aside, and I still say that your biggest beef wouldn't be a beef at all if you (general you) bothered to role play your PCs backgrounds and introductions and incorporate them into the group. That's not a game failure. That's a you failure. But I"m not surprised since most powergamers don't really care that much about role-playing, but focus on roll playing instead. Not an insult, but a core aspect of what powergaming is by nature.

 

[Orlax]

I've actually had that work well a few times as long as it was player initiated (aka "Hey, can I just take over one the hirelings that is already traveling with us?") Saw a lantern bearer evolve (eventually) into an epic hero that way... If you try to force it on a player though it is almost a guaranteed disaster.

We actually did that with a new player in my pathfinder group. We'd "interacted" with a merc a few levels back and he was still kicking around the town that acted as our base of operations (we'd arrested him rather than killing him). The new player was coming in to replace a player that was leaving for the army. The new player had no idea what to do for a back story, but sort of knew what kind of build he wanted to play and it linked up with what this old npc was for his build so we suggested this NPC from a while back be the basis for the new character coming to the party. He went from the bare amount of back story the npc had added his own flare to it and rolled into the game as a PC. He still has the mark of justice on him if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Ristamar]

Nothing drives me nuts more then the POOF into exsitance PC...

what, we are 17th level and fought tooth and nail hearing that no one else can handle these challages, then fighting the lich lords prize death knight we lost our good friend and best healer, Jaminin the cleric/Paladin of pelor. Now devastated we find Draken the bold, level 17 bard who happens to be able to fill in both in melee and healing... hey where did he come from?

There are various ways to get around the shock of "replacement" characters in long standing campaigns given a little cooperative planning by the group.

In the early stages of a campaign, each player can collaborate with the DM to create one or two character back-ups in the event of a PC death. Alternatively, allow players to designate NPCs they've met during the natural course of play as a potential back-up. These back-ups are then planted within the campaign as dynamic NPCs that grow in power relative to the party.

A designated back-up NPC should ideally only occasionally interact with the party or be known to the PCs through word of their deeds and reputation. This allows the quirks and details of the character's personality and background to be largely malleable, and the player can make it his own without competing or clashing with the DM's interpretation of the character.

When a PC meets a permanent or long term death, one of his back-ups comes to the forefront to join the party. Since the respective player had input in the background and personality of the NPC (or in the case of a designated replacement, they liked the basic foundation enough to adopt it as their own), it's easier for him to slip into a new role he'll enjoy while retaining the verisimilitude of absorbing a "replacement" party member.

Introducing the new PC to the party could take on many forms depending on the needs of the campaign. He might show up unexpectedly in the middle of an adventure (alone or with other NPCs) or the party may seek him out as part of a larger quest.

Any downtime between or during sessions can provide further opportunity for the DM and the player to collaborate on the important details of the NPC respective to the current campaign. The DM could even run one or more "flashback" sessions for the new PC, allowing the player to explore and experience the character's past while acclimating to any new skills and abilities. These side adventures are great for groups that need a break from the current game and want to explore a different piece of the campaign world. They can also be pulled out when one or more players aren't able to make a regularly scheduled session.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

And these were all high level PCs?

my PC examples ranged from 9-19th
the one I was running range a lot but some are epic.

Did they not have enough funds to get them raised by that point?

I gave the reason in each, can you not read? Very rarely do I ever see people just pay for it...

Did they not have any number of magical items by that point to do the job?

magic items that come with bring you back from the dead are not common in my experience.

I'm starting to suspect something. I've been playing for 35 years. I've only had a few PCs make it into the teens.

we play about 6 months to a year at a campaign (2 long examples are 2+ years) and I've got more games that made it to 13th then ended before 9th.

To see you have so many, and so quickly,

I don't think it's quickly at all...

and to go by your username, I'm guessing you just burned right to epic levels Monty Haul style

I think if I was money haul not having magic or money would be much rarers...

and thus didn't spend the time most people do to acquire these in game relationships and item acquisitions that would make your problem moot.

I can't imagine ever having relationships that make it moot to bring the dead back to life... an NPC that can do that is a rare thing in my worlds...

Extra confusing that someone who powergames would have their biggest issue with high level PCs just showing up anyway to replace a lost one.

yea, because a group fo players powergameing means what to you? I mean really, if we loose the healer it sucks...

That's kind of what your entire table is doing by zipping all your characters to high level right off the bat anyway.

we don't zip through anything...

All this aside, and I still say that your biggest beef wouldn't be a beef at all if you (general you) bothered to role play your PCs backgrounds and introductions and incorporate them into the group.

we do role play that, but when no one in the kingdom is powerful enough to do X one day then the next we have to change that it sucks...

That's not a game failure. That's a you failure. But I"m not surprised since most powergamers don't really care that much about role-playing,

funny thing when my complaint is that it hurts our Role-playing and has nothing to do with rolls at all. Maybe if you read what I said and not making up some made up issue.

Not an insult, but a core aspect of what powergaming is by nature.

funny thing you don't seem to know what powergaming is, because I have powergamers who always have stories...

 

[Orlax]

Starting out at level 1 is not a house rule. Also, a lot of people actually like it like that.



And these were all high level PCs? Did they not have enough funds to get them raised by that point? Did they not have any number of magical items by that point to do the job?

I'm starting to suspect something. I've been playing for 35 years. I've only had a few PCs make it into the teens. To see you have so many, and so quickly, and to go by your username, I'm guessing you just burned right to epic levels Monty Haul style and thus didn't spend the time most people do to acquire these in game relationships and item acquisitions that would make your problem moot. Extra confusing that someone who powergames would have their biggest issue with high level PCs just showing up anyway to replace a lost one. That's kind of what your entire table is doing by zipping all your characters to high level right off the bat anyway.

All this aside, and I still say that your biggest beef wouldn't be a beef at all if you (general you) bothered to role play your PCs backgrounds and introductions and incorporate them into the group. That's not a game failure. That's a you failure. But I"m not surprised since most powergamers don't really care that much about role-playing, but focus on roll playing instead. Not an insult, but a core aspect of what powergaming is by nature.

Aren't you the guy who like 6 pages ago said it's pointless to play a game where death can't happen. Now you are riding this guy saying he's playing wrong because he's had death happen in the teens, and that you've never seen a game in the teens where the party members couldn't just get back up of they choose to (via the party paying to get them rezzed or some other such method)? What kind of hypocritical BS is that? I like the subtle appeal to authority you got going here as well, trying to indicate that GM didn't know what they are doing because they went through levels quickly or have seen high level play frequently in a term of playing shorter than yours. Here is a fun fact, I've been playing for 9 years I've seen high level play a few times now, even played in epic levels in 3.5e era (and I went from 1 to 24 too, took me about 2 years of weekly sessions in college), and I regularly make it to the low teens with any character I'm in a serious game with. The length of time you've been playing this game for does not matter for anything really.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Aren't you the guy who like 6 pages ago said it's pointless to play a game where death can't happen. Now you are riding this guy saying he's playing wrong because he's had death happen in the teens, and that you've never seen a game in the teens where the party members couldn't just get back up of they choose to (via the party paying to get them rezzed or some other such method)? What kind of hypocritical BS is that?

It's not. They are two different conversations. In the earlier conversation, you were saying that you're a bad DM if any players die not of their own doing. In this conversation, he's talking about high level PCs dying. If you read all of my posts, you would have read that I said that by the time a PC gets to that high of a level, they usually have the means to come back to life. Either by a PC itself, magic item, NPC acquaintance, etc. Since the vast majority of players don't play PCs at high level, my earlier point is still valid because that's where most of the game is played. For those powergamers like GMfPG, they play at high levels...wait for it....powergaming. Two totally different conversations. Me saying that playing without the risk of death is boring and me saying that by the time you reach superhero levels you should have means to be raised are not statements dependent on each other.

But seeing as how you've mixed up what words mean already in this thread more than once, I'm not all that surprised that you'd conflate these two very different arguments as well.

I like the subtle appeal to authority you got going here as well, trying to indicate that GM didn't know what they are doing because they went through levels quickly or have seen high level play frequently in a term of playing shorter than yours. Here is a fun fact, I've been playing for 9 years I've seen high level play a few times now, even played in epic levels in 3.5e era (and I went from 1 to 24 too, took me about 2 years of weekly sessions in college), and I regularly make it to the low teens with any character I'm in a serious game with. The length of time you've been playing this game for does not matter for anything really.

Hate to break it to you, but when people disagreeing with you by saying, "I never saw that", then the amount of time one has been playing is entirely relevant. Because I can bring to light facts about the game that you don't even know about; things that refute the argument you are making. So yeah, it's important and relevant. Not a fallacy. When someone self describes themselves as a powergamer and rattles of a long list of epic level PCs, it's not a reach to make an observation that they've been zipping through the levels. Especially when we have so many other observations that back that up. Not just here in this thread, but in the multitude of other threads in many forums over the years, as well as the survey feedback the D&D team got during this most recent playtest.

 

[Orlax]

It's not. They are two different conversations. In the earlier conversation, you were saying that you're a bad DM if any players die not of their own doing. In this conversation, he's talking about high level PCs dying. If you read all of my posts, you would have read that I said that by the time a PC gets to that high of a level, they usually have the means to come back to life. Either by a PC itself, magic item, NPC acquaintance, etc. Since the vast majority of players don't play PCs at high level, my earlier point is still valid because that's where most of the game is played. For those powergamers like GMfPG, they play at high levels...wait for it....powergaming. Two totally different conversations. Me saying that playing without the risk of death is boring and me saying that by the time you reach superhero levels you should have means to be raised are not statements dependent on each other.

But seeing as how you've mixed up what words mean already in this thread more than once, I'm not all that surprised that you'd conflate these two very different arguments as well.



Hate to break it to you, but when people disagreeing with you by saying, "I never saw that", then the amount of time one has been playing is entirely relevant. Because I can bring to light facts about the game that you don't even know about; things that refute the argument you are making. So yeah, it's important and relevant. Not a fallacy. When someone self describes themselves as a powergamer and rattles of a long list of epic level PCs, it's not a reach to make an observation that they've been zipping through the levels. Especially when we have so many other observations that back that up. Not just here in this thread, but in the multitude of other threads in many forums over the years, as well as the survey feedback the D&D team got during this most recent playtest.

They aren't different arguments, it's an end the argument has come to from the same exact argument, that PC death is usually due to a failure of some sort on the part of the DM and that it's consequences are not a thing people enjoy.

Your stated solution to the issue of death causing story inconstancies (such as previously non existent people of the appropriate level contrivedly ending up in the right place at the exact right time) is that death shouldn't be permanent.

You are literally saying, 'well if you don't like it when high powered people show up contrivedly you should just not let the players die. You should have seeded some NPC or magic items into the story to essentially take death off the table.'

Even better this leads back to you insinuating that their lack of taking death off the table (by providing magic items or NPCs for the party to pay for a rezz) is the DM's failure. You've literally circled around to inadvertantly supporting the position you started off opposing.

Also fun fact, I'm a quick study and I've read the source books for every version of D&D because they were available to me in my last house, and people kept trying to pull this 'you don't know what it was like back in the day' BS on me all through the play test. I can't visualize those older ones off the top of my head. I'll give you that, but I've read them and know a lot of the things you are saying, and seemingly GM does as well. Again the length of time you've been playing for is inconsequential.