Lightning Fists... I'm confused...

[RigaMortus]

This is from S&F book, not sure if there is errata on it or not:

Lightning Fists (General)
Your skill and agility allows you to attempt a series of blindingly fast blows.
Prerequisite: Monk level 4th+, Dex 15+
Benefit: You can make two extra attacks in a round. All attacks made this round suffer a -5 attack penalty. This feat requires the full attack action.

Ok first question: Lets say I am a level 4 Monk / level 1 Fighter. My Strength is 14 (+2 to hit) and my BAB is +4 (+3 from Monk, +1 from Fighter) for a total of +6 to hit in melee combat. Since my BAB is not +6 or better, I only get 1 attack. Now comes the Lighting Fists feat. According to the wording I get 2 extra attacks (for a total of 3) but all of them are at -5 to hit... Ok, so my first attack is now +1... What are the next two attacks though? It never specifies if you use your BAB or not. How do you calculate your "to hit" for the next two attacks?

Second: Using the same class and stats as the character in the above paragraph. You also have a Dex of an 18. You have the Rapid Shot feat. Your effective attack for Ranged weapons is +8 (+4 BAB and +4 from your classes). Does this means, as a full attack action, you can get 4 attacks with a bow all at +3 to hit?

Someone please help me out here... there is errata on this right?

 

[kreynolds]

How do you calculate your "to hit" for the next two attacks?

Use your paladin friends BAB, not your own. Just kidding. Use your BAB.

Second: Using the same class and stats as the character in the above paragraph. You also have a Dex of an 18. You have the Rapid Shot feat. Your effective attack for Ranged weapons is +8 (+4 BAB and +4 from your classes). Does this means, as a full attack action, you can get 4 attacks with a bow all at +3 to hit?

It's called Lightning Fists, not Lightning Bow.

 

[drnuncheon]

This is from S&F book, not sure if there is errata on it or not:

Lightning Fists (General)
Your skill and agility allows you to attempt a series of blindingly fast blows.
Prerequisite: Monk level 4th+, Dex 15+
Benefit: You can make two extra attacks in a round. All attacks made this round suffer a -5 attack penalty. This feat requires the full attack action.

Ok first question: Lets say I am a level 4 Monk / level 1 Fighter. My Strength is 14 (+2 to hit) and my BAB is +4 (+3 from Monk, +1 from Fighter) for a total of +6 to hit in melee combat. Since my BAB is not +6 or better, I only get 1 attack. Now comes the Lighting Fists feat. According to the wording I get 2 extra attacks (for a total of 3) but all of them are at -5 to hit... Ok, so my first attack is now +1... What are the next two attacks though? It never specifies if you use your BAB or not. How do you calculate your "to hit" for the next two attacks?

As always, you use your BAB. It's really just like 'flurry of blows' except you get 2 additional attacks instead of 1, and you take a -5 on everything instead of a -2. So in this case you could attack regularly (1 attack) at +4, do a flurry of blows (2 attacks at +2 each) or use lightning fists (3 attacks at +1 each).

If you were a 10th level monk (BAB +7) you could attack normally (+7/+2), use a flurry of blows (+5/+5/+0) or use lightning fists (+2/+2/+2/-3).

Second: Using the same class and stats as the character in the above paragraph. You also have a Dex of an 18. You have the Rapid Shot feat. Your effective attack for Ranged weapons is +8 (+4 BAB and +4 from your classes). Does this means, as a full attack action, you can get 4 attacks with a bow all at +3 to hit?

I am fairly certain that lightning fists is for unarmed (or monk weapon) attacks only - but I don't have the book and errata here with me to check.

J

 

[RigaMortus]

All it says is two attacks, it doesn't specify "unarmed" or "melee" or what have you. I quoted it just as it is in the book. Again, unless there is errata on it. In which case, please let me know what it is or where I can find it.

As it stands now, this is much better then taking TWF... You can use a Greatsword and attack 3 times (1 normal and 2 you get from Lightning Fists) vs. TWF where you would only get 2 attacks at less damage (al beit at a better chance to hit).

 

[kreynolds]

All it says is two attacks, it doesn't specify "unarmed" or "melee" or what have you. I quoted it just as it is in the book. Again, unless there is errata on it. In which case, please let me know what it is or where I can find it.

As it stands now, this is much better then taking TWF... You can use a Greatsword and attack 3 times (1 normal and 2 you get from Lightning Fists) vs. TWF where you would only get 2 attacks at less damage (al beit at a better chance to hit).

You have GOT to be KIDDING me! Oh my god, you CAN'T be SERIOUS!

I can't vork with dis kind of person.

 

[drnuncheon]

All it says is two attacks, it doesn't specify "unarmed" or "melee" or what have you. I quoted it just as it is in the book. Again, unless there is errata on it. In which case, please let me know what it is or where I can find it.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/er/er20011228a is the errata for S&F. The only mention of Lightning Fists is to say that you can't use it at the same time as Flurry of Blows.

However, in the FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/er/er20020330a) we see:

"Lightning Fists works exactly like a flurry of blows, except that you add two extra attacks and you suffer a -5 penalty to all your attacks."

I think from that it's clear that LF is an 'improved' FoB and is only usable with your monk attacks.

J

 

[RigaMortus]

Actually I don't think it is clear...

Lightning Fists (General)
Your skill and agility allows you to attempt a series of blindingly fast blows.
Prerequisite: Monk level 4th+, Dex 15+
Benefit: You can make two extra attacks in a round. All attacks made this round suffer a -5 attack penalty. This feat requires the full attack action.

Unless you have an errata version, please point out where it says that you:
a) Can only make unarmed attacks with Lightning Fists
b) Are limited to melee attacks only

Why would you assume these things? Heck, Improved Unarmed Strike isn't even a prereq, so why would it be limited to only a monk's unarmed strikes???

Here is another example of what I am talking about... Lets say you take 10 levels of Cleric and 1 level of Wizard and 2 levels of Arcane Archer... According to the requirements for Arcane Archer, you need to be able to cast Arcane spells. The ability to Imbue Arrows with spells is not limited to Arcane spells only. So why would you assume that you can only Imbue arrows with Arcane spells? The answer is, you wouldn't!

So again, why assume you need to make unarmed melee attacks with Lightning Fists?

 

[Magus_Jerel]

This is what happens when you make assumptions and don't have your first order logic straight.

RigaMortus - as written - yes, you could take ranged attacks with this.

However, this reading makes the feat infinitely superior to several bigtime feats.

the TWF chain
rapid shot
whirlwind attack (at high levels)
flurry of blows

For the sake of balance - it is best to insert the word "melee attacks" into the lightning fist feat description. This, is the problem you get when dealing with 90 day "wonder products"...

 

[Darklone]

Argh

You are serious? You are? OMG.

Splatbooks. Who uses them?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I do.