D&D 5E Limiting cantrips - advice needed

[Mouseferatu]

All editions I have played have rules and statistics on axes, doors and walls.

Yes, but not on how many times in a day a fighter can swing an axe without tiring. That was my point--that I don't know any DM who would assume that, because there are no rules limiting that, it means a character can spend every round of every minute of every hour of a full day doing it.

Nor did I say it should be impossible to chop through stone with a magic axe. I said it should be impossible to punch through stone--that is, with fists--even though there are no rules limiting how often you can strike.

Both examples were meant to illustrate that not everything you can do "at will" is automatically something you can do "indefinitely."

 

[Leatherhead]

That's fair. But this is one area in which I think 4e did very well. The idea of the roles was pretty inspired. The Defender/Leader/Striker/Controller divisions gave everybody niche roles to fill, even in combat. A lot of this conversation, however, has been couched in making sure that one class's DPR is comparable to another class's DPR. Nobody in 4th edition cared that the Avenger hit for more than the Paladin, because the Paladin had a different responsibility. But there have been several references to the effect that if the spellcaster isn't dealing some kind of damage every round, they're not effective. That's what's irking me.

Everyone cared about DPR in 4e, that's when DPR became a commonly known thing.

Honestly, damage is simply being used as a substitute for the lowest common denominator here. The people don't really want to do damage with slings and daggers, but it's literally better than doing absolutely nothing. It's the story of Magus from Dragonlance all over again, the guy couldn't even use a weapon and died because of it, so the people finally realized it was a bad idea for wizards not to have some kind of sustainable combat option when needed. Like Fighters being able to bash open locks, it's a functional option at the least. Unlike Fighters bashing locks, it doesn't feel very "Wizardly" to use weapons. So they spruced it up in 4e by saying "Hey there, you can shoot a magic spell instead, that way you are at least pretending to be a Wizard instead of a Commoner."

And for the sake of the thread's argument: Ray of Frost, a "Controllery" spell that would have been an At-Will for Wizards in 4e, would be blanket banned for all the same reasons of Fire Bolt, so it's not like that would change the argument.

 

[Gnarl45]

After so much discussion, it became clear to me that there is no simple solution.

That's because there rarely is a solution in RPG game design but solutions. Just try your ideas until you find one that works for you and your friends and ask if you need more. We're here to help.

 

[Herobizkit]

I mean, you could always go back to using the 2e Rate of Fire (ROF) for ranged weapons. Gotta love those high Dex Wizards and their three 1d3 darts a round. Or (I think) two daggers. Heck, even Elven Wizards would get 2 attacks a round with their bows at level 1.

You could also remove the Cleric's 2nd-level Cure spells and not let them cast any cure using a level 2 slot.

Or, what others may have suggested, "borrow" the damage for Cantrips from Pathfinder and borrow the Cantrips/day from the Unearthed Arcana 1e supplement.

 

[Bera]

A simple modification to the cantrips for the wizard class might really help you change things up: Give them more cantrips and make them per encounter. I'd say bonus cantrips equal to their intelligence modifier, and they refresh after a one minute rest (i.e. after every combat unless there's absolutely no time to catch your breath).

Repeatedly blasting the same cantrip seems more or less necessary for the warlock: eldritch blast is their thing. Maybe its fine for sorcerers or lore bards or clerics too. I'm undecided. But wizards feel like they should know when to use a ray of frost and when to use a fire bolt, not just fire bolt all the time. Given that Elemental Evil expanded our cantrip options for wizards with seven new cantrips, wizards will probably take those extra cantrips as combat ones. That's ok though, it'll just ensure they've got 3-4 attacking cantrips so they're not completely spamming the same one constantly. How many rounds are your combats lasting anyway? Encounter cantrips would only really hinder wizards if the encounter last longer than the number of cantrips they can reasonably use in combat. Encounter-based cantrips might also encourage wizard players to use their other cantrips like minor illusion or mage hand creatively (and you should let them).

Along the same lines, you could limit wizard cantrips simply so they can't be cast two rounds in a row.

 

[Ahrimon]

I'll toss in a helpful idea. Give all of the casters cantrip slots equal to their 1st level spell slots + the primary ability modifier and treat cantrips just like other spells. If you want a more powerful cantrip you have to use a higher level slot. Then give all of the casters an extra spell slot for each spell a level or so after they would normally cap out that spell level. For example, if the wizard capped out at first level spells at level 7 give him one more at level 9. If you find that your casters are too limited, apply the extra slot again and see how it works. This way all casters get more spells but are limited in the cantrips.

Bottom line is don't be afraid to experiment. If you don't get it right the first time, tweak it or try something else. It's (royal)your game.

 

[Quickleaf]

I did it already! Never had the chance to thank you enough!

Cheers!

Awesome! Cheers, mate.

Did you manage to figure out how your group wants to handle cantrips?

 

[77IM]

If what you want is that old-school feeling of harsh resource-management, especially for wizards, try eliminating damaging can trips and then powering up Arcane Recovery. Like, instead of recovering 1/2 your level in spells, you recover your whole level. Same deal for Circle of the Land druids. For sorcerers, give out more sorcery points (maybe level + Cha mod). For warlocks you already said you're letting them keep eldritch blast. I think most other casters have non-cantrip ways of dealing damage and so they don't need any compensation.

 

[Sunseeker]

I said it should be impossible to punch through stone--that is, with fists--even though there are no rules limiting how often you can strike.

Except for all those skilled martial artists who can ya know, chop through stone with their bare hands.

 

[phmas]

Awesome! Cheers, mate.

Did you manage to figure out how your group wants to handle cantrips?

I'm still not 100% sure yet, but I'll start with something along the lines of 5 casts per short rest, and go from there.

One of my players did some math work, and he arrived at the following conclusions:
1. given that we usually have 5 to 7 encounters a day, lasting usually between 3-4 rounds each, there's usually between 20-25 rounds of combat in a typical dungeon day.
2. At level 5 (almost the level we're in), a Wiz/Sorc/Bard/etc. will have around 9 slots of 1st level and higher, not counting arcane recovery. At level 10, it's 15 slots, and at 15th level, 17 slots.
3. Considering most os these slots will be spent in combat (again, not counting arcane recovery and similiar abilities), that leaves around 10-15 rounds where the caster will most likely need to use cantrips or the like.
4. 5/short rest will ensure that, considering 1-2 short rests a day, the caster will have cantrips available for combat for the most part, but at the same time, will have to manage the resource and cantrips would not be prone to abuse.

cheers!