D&D 5E Limiting Cantrips?

[Willie the Duck]

@Deset Gled @Pedantic Those are great questions – why not treat cantrips as objects that can be equipped as normal, or maybe requiring an action like a shield?

I know most of the past conversation, there was lots of "I don't want to be reduced to a crossbow wielding mage" or OTOH "Unlimited fire bolts really rubs me the wrong me." There was, with a few exceptions, focus on combat cantrips.

Instead, I'm more concerned about the effects that at-will cantrips have on exploration play – things like light obviating (or significantly reducing the need for) thinking about what kind of light or lack thereof would best suit this scenario, or mage hand being used to push/prod/test everything to minimize threat to the rogue. IME those are a bigger gameplay shift.

Which is where the 10 minute transition/equipping time came from. But that's just my personal thing.

I think I've seen a few OSR hacks treat spells as magic items with a slot-based inventory system, so doing that with cantrips is very possible. It's definitely a flavor change that could work better with some classes/character concepts, and worse with others...

Thanks for explaining specifically what problem you are hoping to solve. Too many of these cantip discussions do tend to cycle around whether cantrip mages or crossbow/oil-flask-throwers 'feel' better -- which is fine, but it tends to leave us at a standstill.

If light and mage hand obviating certain challenges is the primary concern, what about making those specific spells 1st level spells with the ritual tag instead? If people want to do them for free, they have to wait the ten minutes (no new rules necessary).

 

[UngeheuerLich]

My limit is very simple:

Casting a cantrip is just as exhausting as swinging an axe.

So tgeoretically you can do it all day, but you can't replace good hard work (like chopping fire wood) with wizads just snipping their fingers.
It is just mental instead of bodily stress.

 

[Quickleaf]

Thanks for explaining specifically what problem you are hoping to solve. Too many of these cantip discussions do tend to cycle around whether cantrip mages or crossbow/oil-flask-throwers 'feel' better -- which is fine, but it tends to leave us at a standstill.

If light and mage hand obviating certain challenges is the primary concern, what about making those specific spells 1st level spells with the ritual tag instead? If people want to do them for free, they have to wait the ten minutes (no new rules necessary).

That might work. I know with the light question, I need to also look at produce flame & dancing lights.

I don't think I'm totally opposed to prolific presence of magical light in high fantasy D&D... it's more that I'd like to make the choice of light source a meaningful one... not a "no brainer."

Same thing with mage hand... it's an awesome fun power and I want players to use it... but I don't want "we mage hand the walls and doors and baseboard and ceiling" to be the default for smart cautious play.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I know with the light question, I need to also look at produce flame & dancing lights.

We had all three (Dancing Lights, Light, and Produce Flame) as 1st level spells for a while, but frankly with nearly half of all the races having darkvision, it becomes a non-issue anyway. When we have PCs without darkvision, usually a caster will take the spell to cast on those PCs anyway since it lasts for 8 hours...

Also, in areas of darkness (like the frozen lands in RotFM, which are usually darkness), having a light spell or continual flame is basically a beacon signalling to creatures on the tundra it's dinner time! come and get it!!

Finally, by the time a PC is 3rd level and has access to Continual Flame, in a relatively quick fashion (ASAP really), each party member will have a lantern or something with Continual Flame anyway.

So, if you want darkness to be an exploration issue, you really need to address a lot more than just those three spells... (IMO anyway).

 

[Pedantic]

That might work. I know with the light question, I need to also look at produce flame & dancing lights.

I don't think I'm totally opposed to prolific presence of magical light in high fantasy D&D... it's more that I'd like to make the choice of light source a meaningful one... not a "no brainer."

Same thing with mage hand... it's an awesome fun power and I want players to use it... but I don't want "we mage hand the walls and doors and baseboard and ceiling" to be the default for smart cautious play.

Maybe split the difference? Up the duration on "utility" cantrips, maybe to unlimited but requiring concentration, and then give them spell slots, maybe just mirroring 1st level spells at the same level. Meanwhile, you can make attack cantrips into items, so a Wizard will walk into combat wielding a Firebolt wand.

 

[Ancalagon]

My limit is very simple:

Casting a cantrip is just as exhausting as swinging an axe.

So tgeoretically you can do it all day, but you can't replace good hard work (like chopping fire wood) with wizads just snipping their fingers.
It is just mental instead of bodily stress.

I 100% support this ruling.

If someone wants to say, cast move earth a few dozen times to dig a quick trench? Sure! Cast it a thousand times in a row to build a mile long canal? Erm... no.

 

[Quickleaf]

We had all three (Dancing Lights, Light, and Produce Flame) as 1st level spells for a while, but frankly with nearly half of all the races having darkvision, it becomes a non-issue anyway. When we have PCs without darkvision, usually a caster will take the spell to cast on those PCs anyway since it lasts for 8 hours...

Also, in areas of darkness (like the frozen lands in RotFM, which are usually darkness), having a light spell or continual flame is basically a beacon signalling to creatures on the tundra it's dinner time! come and get it!!

Finally, by the time a PC is 3rd level and has access to Continual Flame, in a relatively quick fashion (ASAP really), each party member will have a lantern or something with Continual Flame anyway.

So, if you want darkness to be an exploration issue, you really need to address a lot more than just those three spells... (IMO anyway).

Yep. Actually, it's not that I want to strip away everyone's darkvision and make darkness one of the predominant issues for players to tackle. Rather, I want more meaningful/interesting choices and circumstances (along with supporting rules) where magical light isn't the default and clearly superior option.

Here's one of the only examples I can think of: PCs enter a giant spider and ettercap warren – the spiderwebs can be burned away with a torch (20-feet bright light) or produce flame (10-feet bright light), which will attract spiders/ettercaps, but they are afraid of the heat so won't come within the bright light range. Thus, in this deliberately design example, the torch actually is the best option over lanterns (heat is contained and no open flame to deal with webs), light (offers neither heat nor flames), and even produce flame (which gives smaller "safety circle" for party).

But that took a while reading through the light rules to get this one example. I wish there were more of that in 5e – weighing which exploration option fits your needs / the needs of the scenario. Same thinking applies to mage hand vs getting our gloves/hands dirty – in what scenario(s) would we favor the latter over mage hand?

 

[jmartkdr2]

One idea I had for artificers was to just make each cantrip require a special focus - basically, you need a wand of fire bolts which isn't much harder to acquire than a greatsword.

It works for crafty-themed wizards, too, and reduces the feeling of magic being unlimited, since it's only unlimited while you have the tool - if you're disarmed, things get trickier.