Limits on Domain Spells?

[Kask]

and being on the cleric's spell list is the only thing that the rules say is required to be able to prepare the spell.

That AND the rule on class level needed to cast a spell of X level.

I've NEVER had a player who thought they could cast a spell of higher level than the rules in the PHB state.

 

[irdeggman]

The ambiguity you keep trying to make disappear by assertion is that earthquake is on the cleric spell list, and being on the cleric's spell list is the only thing that the rules say is required to be able to prepare the spell.

Again, I agree with your conclusion. But your conclusion is a choice made to resolve an ambiguity ... it's not an elimination of the ambiguity itself.

But it is not an amibiguity.

He can prepare the spell since it is on his cleric list - so he can prepare it as a cleric (non-domain) spell following the rules for preparing those.

What the text under domain spells says is that he can't prepare it as a non-domain spell unless it also appears on his cleric list.

It does not say he can prepare it following the domain spell classification.

The spell exists on the cleric spell list, albeit it as a different level of spell. So the rules for preparing cleric spells are still to be followed.

Yes it could have been clearer but do we really need for them to add on another large amont of pages to the book just to restate existing rules?

 

[Jeff Wilder]

But it is not an amibiguity.

Sure it is.

He can prepare the spell since it is on his cleric list - so he can prepare it as a cleric (non-domain) spell following the rules for preparing those.

I agree. It would be nice if the rules said that. Instead, you had to.

What the text under domain spells says is that he can't prepare it as a non-domain spell unless it also appears on his cleric list.

Right. Which it does.

It does not say he can prepare it following the domain spell classification.

Earthquake is a seventh-level domain spell.

As a domain spell, the cleric cannot prepare it in additional slots unless it is on the cleric list. Which it is.

Note that at no point does earthquake stop being a seventh-level domain spell.

So it is a seventh-level domain spell, that, because it is on the cleric spell list, can be prepared in other slots. Since it's a seventh-level spell, those other slots can be seventh-level slots.

That is the counter-argument, and by the SRD, so far as I can tell, it holds up fine.

As I've said, I agree with the other argument, but that doesn't make the above argument logically invalid. The issue is that the rules introduce an exception without properly limiting the scope of the exception. We can induce that the exception is intended to be limited, but we cannot deduce that. (At least not by the SRD. I still haven't checked the PHB.)

Yes it could have been clearer but do we really need for them to add on another large amont of pages to the book just to restate existing rules?

"A cleric spell that appears as a lower-level domain spell can only be prepared, at that lower level, in the cleric's domain slot." Or, to paraphrase how you put it, "A domain spell that also appears on the cleric list can be prepared in other slots under the normal rules."

That's a statement, not a restatement, because the rules are otherwise ambiguous. And it would take hundreds of such clarifications to amount to any appreciable additional page count, even assuming the section couldn't have been written more accurately and concisely in the first place.

Of course, I realize at this point nobody will be able to admit it's ambiguous, so I've wasted my time typing this. I wish I'd thought of that 10 minutes ago.

 

[irdeggman]

Earthquake is a seventh-level domain spell.

As a domain spell, the cleric cannot prepare it in additional slots unless it is on the cleric list. Which it is.

Note that at no point does earthquake stop being a seventh-level domain spell.

Right but at no time does it also stop being an 8th level "cleric" spell.

So it is a seventh-level domain spell, that, because it is on the cleric spell list, can be prepared in other slots. Since it's a seventh-level spell, those other slots can be seventh-level slots.

At no time does it state that.

At no time does it state that domain spells can be prepared using cleric slots.

That is the counter-argument, and by the SRD, so far as I can tell, it holds up fine.

As I've said, I agree with the other argument, but that doesn't make the above argument logically invalid. The issue is that the rules introduce an exception without properly limiting the scope of the exception. We can induce that the exception is intended to be limited, but we cannot deduce that. (At least not by the SRD. I still haven't checked the PHB.)

Only if you ignore the rules for cleric spells - that the rules for domain spells specifically did not change.

"A cleric spell that appears as a lower-level domain spell can only be prepared, at that lower level, in the cleric's domain slot." Or, to paraphrase how you put it, "A domain spell that also appears on the cleric list can be prepared in other slots under the normal rules."

That's a statement, not a restatement, because the rules are otherwise ambiguous. And it would take hundreds of such clarifications to amount to any appreciable additional page count, even assuming the section couldn't have been written more accurately and concisely in the first place.

It would have been far simplier to not put in the single sentence

If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in his domain spell slot.

Then there would have been no cause for confusion right?

 

[Jeff Wilder]

It would have been far simplier to not put in the single sentence

I agree, from a strictly logical perspective.

However, you'd end up with a FAQ on the issue, it would be asked so many times. "Can I prepare domain spells in my other slots?" So from a design perspective, it'd be better to simply be very clear how it works.

But yes ... logically, if you never introduce an exception, you don't need to limit the exception.

 

[risner]

"Can I prepare domain spells in my other slots?"

No, Domain slots can only hold domain slots and the level of a domain spell can't be used to memorize in cleric slots.

There are a number of FAQ that touch on issues related.

To answer your original question, you can only memorize one (1) 7th level earthquake a day.

If you wish it explicitly stated, check Lost Empires of Faerun page 26 "Sun Spells" ability. That ability grants a divine caster (like a Cleric) the ability to memorize Sun domain spells in normal cleric spell slots which they normally can not do. There are hundreds of examples of other classes or abilities that allow you to break the rule prohibiting you from memorizing domain spells in non domain slots.

 

[pawsplay]

If you apply all of the information, there is no ambiguity.

Is earthquake a Cleric spell? Yes. What level is it? 8th. Can I prepare it? Yes, as an 8th level spell.

Is earthquake a domain spell? Yes. What level is it? 7th. Can I prepare it? Yes, either it or another domain spell occupies my 7th level domain slot.

Earthquake is on both the Cleric and Earth spell lists, but as you can see, being on both lists creates no contradictions. The only remaining ambiguity is, "Does having a spell at one level on a spell list make it available to another list at a different level?" We know that answer to that is no, the list and level given for each spell is specific to that list. Thus, a cleric/wizard gets cleric spells at certain levels and wizard spells at certain levels, even if those spells appear at different times on the other list.

 

[Kask]

Then there would have been no cause for confusion right?

I've never run into any player who having read the PHB has had this confusion.

 

[irdeggman]

I've never run into any player who having read the PHB has had this confusion.

The OP did.

If you read all of my posts you will see that I do not and I tried to use rules quotes to elaborate. But it comes down to a single sentence that doesn't add or specify any rules.

 

[Kask]

The OP did.

It's almost impossible to write rules for a complex game so that 100% of people understand them. 99.999% is pretty good.