List your problematic spells here

[Kerrick]

I'm thinking about working on a rather amitious project - rebalancing the spells from the PHB over 10 levels instead of 9 (disregarding 0-level spells, so 1-10 instead of 1-9), with L10 spells being gained at caster level 19. Along the way I plan to "fix" a bunch of problematic spells, so I'd like you folks to list ones that you have problems with. Feel free to include reasons. I will also be making the cleric/mage spell lists more distinct - clerics will be losing the symbol spells, for instance (they already have glyphs). Druids will lose finger of death and reverse gravity (can anyone think of a reason WHY those are on the druid spell list in the first place?). Bards will lose cure wounds spells (those are divine, not arcane). I'm debating about this, but I think XP as a component will go (one of the few things I like about 4E so far - I never liked that rule, personally).

The reason I'm doing this is, quite frankly, I'm bored. I'm a designer - I love to play around with the rules and fix things that need fixing (there's a fair amount of that), and now that 4E is coming out and Wizards won't be putting anything else out for 3E, the rules will be pretty well set in stone - I can start messing around with major systems like spells without worrying about some new supplement coming out and screwing everything up.


So. I'll start this party off:

The broken spells:

Antimagic field - just needs a few tweaks, IMO.

Disjunction - no-brainer. Tops just about everyone's list of "most broken spell ever".

Gate - Ranks right behind disjunction on the broken-meter.

Magic missile - this is arguable. With 10 levels, though, it might be better off getting moved to L2.

Polymorph (all) - even with the changes, this whole group of spells still has problems.
Shapechange - same.

Shadow conjuration/evocation/shades - someone pointed this out to be me on another board. A 9th level spell (shades) that allows you to mimic 8th level conjurations at 80% efficiency is just a BIT too good.

Wish - 9th level spells are no longer the ultimate power, and yet wish is still there.


The spells that need school changes:

Cure wounds (all) - They need to go back to Necromancy (you know, the school that covers "death, unlife, and the life force". Conjuration (healing) is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard of.

Fear - needs to go back to Enchantment where it belongs.


The spells that just need changed:

Blade barrier - blades of force? WTF?

Darkness - has anyone ever figured out what "shadowy illumination" is? Is this spell creating a blacklight?

Deep slumber/Sleep - these spells have been nerfed to uselessness.

Permanency - we completely ditched this spell in our campaign and replaced it with binding and http://shtar.pbwiki.com/Feats#anchorspell]anchoring[/url] spells.

 

[Kerrick]

As a sample of what I'm doing, I thought I'd post the rewritten (limited) wish/miracle spells:

As a sample of what I'm doing, I thought I'd post the rewritten (limited) wish/miracle spells:

Limited Wish
Universal
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

A limited wish lets you create nearly any type of effect. For example, a limited wish can do any of the following things.
• Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
• Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
• Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, even if it’s of a prohibited school.
• Duplicate any other spell of 4th level or lower, even if it’s of a prohibited school.
• Undo the harmful effects of many spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
• Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a –7 penalty on its next saving throw.

A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal (but the save DC is for a 7th-level spell). When a limited wish spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 1,000 gp, you must provide that component.

If you cast this spell for any purpose other than to duplicate another spell, you take 1 point of Con damage as the strain of altering reality takes its toll on your system. This damage can only be restored through rest, not magical healing (though healing from a divine source will restore it).


Wish
Universal
Level: Sor/Wiz 10
Components: V, XP
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes

By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you. Even wish, however, has its limits.

A wish can produce any one of the following effects.
• Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
• Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
• Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
• Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
• Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
• Create a nonmagical item of up to 10,000 gp in value.
• Create a non-epic magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item. It can alter an epic magic item, but cannot turn a non-epic item into an epic one.
• Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
• Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.
• Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.
• Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level that the caster can see and place those creatures anywhere else on the same plane, regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
• Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

You can try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

Duplicated spells allow saves and spell resistance as normal (but save DCs are for 10th-level spells).

Material Component: When a wish duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 5,000 gp, you must provide that component.

If you cast this spell for any purpose other than to duplicate another spell, you take 2 points of Con damage as the strain of altering reality takes its toll on your system. This damage can only be restored through rest, not magical healing (though healing from a divine source will restore it).


Miracle
Evocation
Level: Clr 9, Luck 9
Components: V, S, XP; see text
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes

You don’t so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.

A miracle can do any of the following things.
• Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower (including spells to which you have access because of your domains).
• Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower.
• Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity.
• Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.

If the miracle has any of the above effects, casting it has no cost.
Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request. Casting such a miracle takes a toll on the cleric's health because of the powerful divine energies involved. Examples of especially powerful miracles of this sort could include the following.
• Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting.
• Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error.
• Protecting a city from an earthquake, volcanic eruption, flood, or other major natural disaster.

In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity’s (or alignment’s) nature is refused.

A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DCs are as for a 9th-level spell. When a miracle duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost. When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component.

If you cast this spell for any purpose other than to duplicate another spell, you take 2 points of Con damage as the strain of altering reality takes its toll on your system. This damage can only be restored through rest, not magical healing (though healing from a divine source will restore it).

 

[Voadam]

Searing light. Clerical laser zaps that happen to do more to undead. Bleah.

 

[Kerrick]

Ooh, good one. I hate that spell in NWN (I play in a multiplayer PW) - since there's nothing that resists divine damage, it's a killer.

 

[Goolpsy]

What About Moving Orb spells back where they belong? (Evo)

 

[Deset Gled]

Melf's Unicorn Arrow. This must have been written by someone with no understanding of spell schools at all. It's an instantaneous conjuration that creates unicorn horns that cause damage and bull rush. As an instantaneous conjuration, SR does not apply, and the horns are permanent. It also lacks a conjuration subschool, which is just plain against the rules of conjurations.

Normally I say that this spell is just plain banned. But if you're up for the challenge, it's in the PHB2.

 

[Wolfwood2]

Disjunction - no-brainer. Tops just about everyone's list of "most broken spell ever".

I think it could work if turned into a super Dispel Magic.

Normally it acts like a Dispel Magic cast as an area, except:

A. Every magical effect (and item) in the area must make a check, rather than 1 per creature.

B. There is no cap on caster level bonus to the check.

C. Items that are suppressed are suppressed for 1d3 minutes rather than 1d3 rounds.

Alternately it can be cast as a single target effect on a single magical item to Disjoin it permanently.

I think this preserves all the main features of the effect, while removing the auto-win dispelling and the "party just lost all their stuff". A suitable 9th or 10th level spell.

Gate - Ranks right behind disjunction on the broken-meter.

I'd split off the travel effect. A 9th level super-teleport that creates a gateway to exactly where you want to go on any plane is reasonable. Drop the creature calling part.

Polymorph (all) - even with the changes, this whole group of spells still has problems.
Shapechange - same.

Worth the effort to fix, though. Shapeshifting is classical story magic. It needs to be retained somehow.

Shadow conjuration/evocation/shades - someone pointed this out to be me on another board. A 9th level spell (shades) that allows you to mimic 8th level conjurations at 80% efficiency is just a BIT too good.

Eh.... You don't exactly see wizards prepping all their spell slots with Shades.

I don't find it too problematic, given that most Illusion spells are useless around 9th level due to omnipresent True Seeing.

Deep slumber/Sleep - these spells have been nerfed to uselessness.

You know, I have to disagree. I'm running a Beguiler, and at 1st level Sleep is just devastating to opponents it can effect. Yes, even with the 1 round casting time.

What I would suggest is extending the useful range of Sleep a bit. 4HD + 1HD/2 caster levels (max 4) would do nicely.

 

[Bagpuss]

What About Moving Orb spells back where they belong? (Evo)

In which case would you remove their ability to bypass Spell Resistance as well?

 

[akbearfoot]

Orb spells...

The orb spells are fine....as long as they are bumped up to 6th level spells.

I mean seriously, wizards would STILL take them as 6th level spells.




Magic missile gets put on the same level as scorching ray? 5d4+5 vs 8d6 at 9th level? No thanks....plus what other ranged attack spells do wizards get at 1st level at that point? Acid splash? lmao

1st level wizards dieing by the droves as they try to get in close for their burning hands and chill touch spells, lol.

 

[Maldor]

The orb spells are fine....as long as they are bumped up to 6th level spells.

I mean seriously, wizards would STILL take them as 6th level spell

i'm hard pressed to take them as a forth i mean there not that good 1d6/level no save no SR
but they only hit one target and you have to make a attack roll it's just not a real good spell

scorching ray thats a good spell at mid levels (8-12) it deal fair damage 8-12d6 and can hit 1-3 targets and gives no save with the orbs your paying two spell levels of the ability to bypass SR which just isn't that common or hard to overcome you can just buff the fighter and use spells that debuff the monster