List your problematic spells here

[Hypersmurf]

Moved to House Rules.

-Hyp.
(Moderator)

 

[Jack Simth]

Re: Polymorph line:

There's three basic approaches that will usually make the polymorph line balanceable while still in the game:

1) A different way to Summon. You don't become a modified form of you; you become that creature as listed in the Monster Manual, minus whatever the version of the spell wouldn't give you (but not plus your segment of that). So if your Wizard polymorphs the Rogue into a Hydra, the Rogue does not get sneak attack on each bite. If your Monk has Mage Armor on when you Polymorph him into a bird, the Mage Armor is surpressed for the duration; and so on. Damage taken by the polymorphed form is applied to the mage afterwards, and vice-versa. If you Shapechange into an Efreeti, you don't get Wish as a Spell-like ability (nor do you keep your Gnomish spell-like abilities or Wizard spellcasting). Can combine with 2 if desired.
2) Specific forms only. There's variants of this, from each Polymorph spell is individually researched and prepared (often at different spell levels), and turns the subject into a specific creature based on the spell, to each spell gives a listing of specific creatures it can turn a target into (similar to the Summon Monster line). Can be combined with 1 if desired.
3) Mostly illusion. The spells can give you some number of selectable abilities available through the spell - turning the subject into "a balor" is mostly a special effect. It's more of a matter of... "Well, with your caster level, and that version, you can get two of: +3 Natural Armor, Fly 60 (average), Swim 30, Burrow 10, a 1d6 natural attack (can be taken multiple times), +4 Dex (shape bonus), +4 Strength (shape bonus), or +4 Con (shape bonus), or move your size up or down one category (can be taken multiple times for multiple size categories). Also, make a Disguise check to fool everyone into thinking you are that."

 

[Cheiromancer]

Simulacrum is problematic. Especially if combined with Eschew Material Components. Free wishes from simulacra of noble djinn, creatures with fast healing or regeneration (to bypass the oddly worded restriction on healing- if it is a restriction). It's a weird spell.

 

[Kerrick]

What About Moving Orb spells back where they belong? (Evo)

Normally I say that this spell is just plain banned. But if you're up for the challenge, it's in the PHB2.

PHB spells only, please. I want to stick to OGC stuff so I can reprint the document when it's done.

I think it could work if turned into a super Dispel Magic.

Normally it acts like a Dispel Magic cast as an area, except...

I'd split off the travel effect. A 9th level super-teleport that creates a gateway to exactly where you want to go on any plane is reasonable. Drop the creature calling part.

Hey, quit looking at my notes! Seriously, I was thinking the exact same things for both spells.

Eh.... You don't exactly see wizards prepping all their spell slots with Shades.

I don't find it too problematic, given that most Illusion spells are useless around 9th level due to omnipresent True Seeing.

Yeah.. shades isn't on the list of OMGBROKEN!!1! but it does need to be adjusted. True seeing, OTOH... I'll add that to the list of problematic spells too. It does too much, IMO, and there should be a way to get around that all-or-nothing effect - maybe it grants the person a bonus to the Will save to disbelieve illusions?

You know, I have to disagree. I'm running a Beguiler, and at 1st level Sleep is just devastating to opponents it can effect. Yes, even with the 1 round casting time.

What I would suggest is extending the useful range of Sleep a bit. 4HD + 1HD/2 caster levels (max 4) would do nicely.

That's what I was thinking too - 4HD is not very useful beyond 1st level. My gripe is that, while it CAN be devastating, like you said, it doesn't affect much, but extending the HD would help a good deal.

Worth the effort to fix, though. Shapeshifting is classical story magic. It needs to be retained somehow.

Oh, I never suggested getting rid of them - just fixing them. I like Jack's suggestion #1: you actually become the creature. That eliminates a HUGE amount of problems right there (what spells/magic items are still in effect, e.g.), and fits the strict definition of "polymorph". If we put a cap of CR = caster level, add in that the caster must have seen or have knowledge of the beast (maybe make a Knowledge check), and go back to the old version where you have to make a Will save to avoid losing your identity to the creature's. Shapechange would be similar, except that the caster doesn't have to make the Will save.

Magic missile gets put on the same level as scorching ray? 5d4+5 vs 8d6 at 9th level? No thanks....plus what other ranged attack spells do wizards get at 1st level at that point? Acid splash? lmao

Mm, good point. It could be argued that scorching ray is a bit too powerful for a L2 spell. Magic missile is like a L1.5 spell - a touch too strong for L1, but not enough for L2. Wizards are fairly lacking in decent-range attack spells at 1st level... all they get is ray of enfeeblement, mage hand/chill touch or shocking grasp, and magic missile.

Simulacrum is problematic. Especially if combined with Eschew Material Components. Free wishes from simulacra of noble djinn, creatures with fast healing or regeneration (to bypass the oddly worded restriction on healing- if it is a restriction). It's a weird spell.

Oh yeah... not to mention simulacra in ritual spells. Ugh. We quickly house-ruled that one - living or undead beings only in a ritual spell - no constructs.

 

[Wolfwood2]

Simulacrum is problematic. Especially if combined with Eschew Material Components. Free wishes from simulacra of noble djinn, creatures with fast healing or regeneration (to bypass the oddly worded restriction on healing- if it is a restriction). It's a weird spell.

I think with Simulacrum, we need to go back and look at the original intent of the spell.

The idea is to present an option for the classic, "wizard substitutes a subservient duplicate for the highly ranked person". The idea is not to get a powerful minion for combat or useful spell-like abilities.

I'd therefore suggest:

A. Restrict it by Type. Only humanoids, (maybe) giants, and (maybe) monstrous humanoids.

B. Clarify that a simulacrum is a Construct and has all applicable construct qualities.

C. A simulacrum can have no attribute score greater than a 15 or greater than that of the original, whichever is less.

D. A simulacrum has construct hitdice equal to that of the original . (If the original has both racial and class hitdice, it has construct hitdice both sources.) It's BAB and saves are calculated from the construct hitdice. It is proficient with all weapons and armor that the original creature is proficient with.

It does however have all of the original's feats, including real or virtual feats granted by class level, though some of these may be non-functional due to its lower ability scores and lower BAB. It has half of the original's skill ranks (round down) bu speaks all languages spoken by the original. It otherwise has none of the original's class features. It has no supernatural, spell-like, or extraordinary abilties.

E. A simulacrum is a perfect physical duplicate, indistinguishable from the original by means of Spot checks. A DC 15 heal check will reveal it is not alive, but this requires a hands-on examination.

F. A simulacrum will obey its creator absolutely. It has an academic knowledge of the world, but it does not personally remember anything of the original's life and much be carefully coached by its creator to successfully impersonate the original.

Simulacrum is a 5th level Wiz/Sorcspell [Illusion, Shadow] that requires ruby dust in the amount of 100 per hitdice. Casting time of 12 hours plus ice and snow.

 

[A Crazy Fool]

True seeing is a bit of a problem, I agree. I personally say it sees through all illusions with a lower caster level than it's own (I also allow higher level versions of spells like disguise self that are designed specifically to defeat true seeing in adition to having a bonus to the save DC), and automaticly grants a save versus other illusion spells.

 

[Jack Simth]

True seeing is a bit of a problem, I agree. I personally say it sees through all illusions with a lower caster level than it's own (I also allow higher level versions of spells like disguise self that are designed specifically to defeat true seeing in adition to having a bonus to the save DC), and automaticly grants a save versus other illusion spells.

For True Seeing, try making Nondetection (but not Mind Blank) function against True Seeing and See Invisibility. The Nondetection mechanic is a caster level check on the part of the looker against a DC based on Nondetection's caster level; a roll to succeed.

 

[Kerrick]

True seeing is a bit of a problem, I agree. I personally say it sees through all illusions with a lower caster level than it's own (I also allow higher level versions of spells like disguise self that are designed specifically to defeat true seeing in adition to having a bonus to the save DC), and automaticly grants a save versus other illusion spells.

Ooh, I like that. I was also going to steal a bit from NWN - their version grants a bonus to Spot checks equal to +2/caster level (max +30). It otherwise lets you see in darkness (normal or magical), and negates displacement, blur, invisibility, and concealment, but it doesn't reveal polymorphed creatures/objects. Keep the ability to see into the Ethereal, and you've got a pretty good spell that's not overpowered.

 

[Wolv0rine]

Oh, I never suggested getting rid of them - just fixing them. I like Jack's suggestion #1: you actually become the creature. That eliminates a HUGE amount of problems right there (what spells/magic items are still in effect, e.g.), and fits the strict definition of "polymorph". If we put a cap of CR = caster level, add in that the caster must have seen or have knowledge of the beast (maybe make a Knowledge check), and go back to the old version where you have to make a Will save to avoid losing your identity to the creature's. Shapechange would be similar, except that the caster doesn't have to make the Will save.

I'd say that Jack's suggestion #1 is a good way to go, but I would allow protection and buff spells to apply to the polymorphed target. Turn Todd the Fighter into a hawk, and sure he's a hawk with Todd's mind. But I see nothing wrong with throwing some Mage Armor and Bull's Strength on Todd the Hawk-Fighter.

Quote:
{True seeing is a bit of a problem, I agree. I personally say it sees through all illusions with a lower caster level than it's own (I also allow higher level versions of spells like disguise self that are designed specifically to defeat true seeing in adition to having a bonus to the save DC), and automaticly grants a save versus other illusion spells.}

Ooh, I like that. I was also going to steal a bit from NWN - their version grants a bonus to Spot checks equal to +2/caster level (max +30). It otherwise lets you see in darkness (normal or magical), and negates displacement, blur, invisibility, and concealment, but it doesn't reveal polymorphed creatures/objects. Keep the ability to see into the Ethereal, and you've got a pretty good spell that's not overpowered.

Yeah, that's a very godd suggestion. I've always been a proponent of spell overrides by more powerful spells in this vein. With a system like like, there's no need for Spot check bonuses or whatnot, the two spells basically just battle it out to see who wins.

 

[Jack Simth]

I'd say that Jack's suggestion #1 is a good way to go, but I would allow protection and buff spells to apply to the polymorphed target. Turn Todd the Fighter into a hawk, and sure he's a hawk with Todd's mind. But I see nothing wrong with throwing some Mage Armor and Bull's Strength on Todd the Hawk-Fighter.

Turn Smash the Cleric-10 who currently has Divine Power and Righteous Might running into a Clay Golem, on the other hand, and he's doing 2 Slams +21 Melee for 4d8+12.

In order to make it difficult to abuse, the in-place spells have to go away, too.

Oh, and a disclaimer:
The approaches I listed for fixing polymorph are not originally mine. They're pulled from various sources that I can't remember at this point.