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Logic behind sales of "Expedition to Castle Greyhawk"?

PS: I also feel, quite strongly, that people who enjoy the open and adaptable nature of the Greyhawk campaign setting do not favor it for just being a "proper noun generator." You can have a coherent, compelling setting with new stuff while still leaving lots of room for individual players and DMs to customize their game. As GVD said, the original folio pulled it off, and even the LGG, which is filled to the brim with continuity from a hundred different sources, still leaves huge swaths of the world undeveloped and ripe for adoption by an enterprising DM.

Part of the reason why I love Greyhawk is because that's the campaign my buddy ran when we played in high school. I fondly recall the time we fought the goblin raiders back to their lair after they attacked a wagon train we were guarding as it made its way from Greyhawk City to Hardby, and we exterminated them all. I fondly recall the time we fled Greyhawk City because we were wanted by the thieves' guild for crossing their territory, and when we got to Bissel we found it too dull and boring so we headed to the Wild Coast, where we got more than we could handle. I remember that time we found the temple of Nerull in the land of the Tiger Nomads and convinced them that the troop of paladins who were chasing us intended to raze the temple, then we watched as the two factions slaughtered each other, waiting for a chance to loot the battlefield. But those things won't be in a new sourcebook published by anyone.

But another reason I love Greyhawk is that when we used to play, I got the sense that this was a well-thought out coherent world we were playing in. "Wow! Yhey thought of everything when they made this stuff up," I'd say to myself. There was such a rich history to this world. And even now, the more I read Greyhawk material, the more I am finding that only about half of that stuff came from any "official" source; the other half was the invention of my DM. And you can't find that stuff in any sourcebook WotC (or anyone else) puts out either.

So again, I'm not going to buy any new Greyhawk material soley because it is new Greyhawk material. I'll buy it because it's great material. But having said that, I've been pleased with the quality of the Greyhawk material I've read in the last few years (written by Erik Mona and company) because, let's face it, those who care about the setting feel very passionately about it. And that can't be discounted.
 

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arscott said:
In order to give Greyhawk an appeal to a wider audience, WotC will likely have to change Greyhawk in ways that longtime fans will find distasteful.

If the "medieval fantasy" D&D audience is not to be split between FR and GH, I agree with this statement 110%. So long as FR is supported, there is not room in the marketplace IMO for another broad, sweeping "medieval fantasy" D&D setting. While GH and FR are fundamentally different in detail, in very broad outline they are much the same in terms of how they approach the "medieval fantasy" genre of D&D. If FR did not exist, GH could be published "as is" and sell gangbusters, I'm convinced. But as FR occupies the mainline "medieval fantasy" field at the moment, it seems GH must evolve into something that FR is definably not before Wotc will have an interest in publishing both settings or seeing GH published by a third party under license.

And becoming something FR is not, IMO, very likely entails significant change to what people have come to understand as GH. The trick will be to change GH enough to draw a new audience, rather than cannibalizing FR's audience, while at the same time preserving those things that make Greyhawk Greyhawk to the largest number of people possible. This will without any question tick off some number of present GH fans. I think this is unavoidable, however. I think it is also absolutely necessary if GH is ever to see publication for the reasons stated.

The goal, IMO, should not be to try to please everyone because that is impossible. The goal should be, IMO, to draw substantial numbers of new fans to GH, without cannibalizing FR's sales. Brass tacks, IMO - Wotc has got to make money on any revived GH setting without loosing a comparative amount of money from FR sales. If GH can't change as part of this process, I think it stays mostly dead, but for the one off product like Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk. This is where I don't see much relevance with respect to Greyhawk the setting in the sales of the one off Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk. IMO, at best, strong sales will keep Greyhawk in the conversation for awhile after the demise of Dragon and Dungeon "Paizo-Hawk." However, until someone addresses Wotc's concerns about GH with respect to FR, other than by telling them they are wrong, Greyhawk the setting is a nonstarter, IMO.

Ultimately, Wotc calls the shots and if they believe that a published GH "as is" will hurt FR sales, that concern must be affirmatively addressed, not nay sayed, by making GH something other than "as is." It would not be my first choice but I believe Wotc does have such concerns, that they are not entirely baseless, and thus they must be addressed whether one agrees or disagrees.

YMMV
 

GVDammerung said:
And becoming something FR is not, IMO, very likely entails significant change to what people have come to understand as GH. The trick will be to change GH enough to draw a new audience, rather than cannibalizing FR's audience, while at the same time preserving those things that make Greyhawk Greyhawk to the largest number of people possible. This will without any question tick off some number of present GH fans. I think this is unavoidable, however. I think it is also absolutely necessary if GH is ever to see publication for the reasons stated.
There was plenty of change I say. Greyhawk had a rennaisance in Paizo going into directions never seen before at the same time never stepping on Living Greyhawk's toes. It was drawing in new gamers like mad as Mona attests in his sales figures. And it revived the long adventure format. As far as I can tell the FR crowd never suffered during those good years, if they did it was from the creation of Eberron IMO. Yet its a fact, all these things had positive momentum and WotC metaphorically took their ball and went home. They took GH back, they took Dragon and Dungeon back and they now enjoy the adventure resurgance paizo started.
 


GVDammerung said:
I can certainly see your point in counting official licenses to third parties. In such case, the count would include not just Dragonlance but Ravenloft and Gamma World (both licenses since reverted). I think a very large number of Greyhawk fans would enthusiastically welcome a license of Greyhawk to a third party publisher if Wotc would not be interested in reviving the setting itself. Of note, such a revival need not necessarily include "12 supplements a year" etc. I think the large majority of Greyhawk fans who would be pleased to see the setting revived would welcome just a "300 page" core setting treatment to start. :)

The rub with a license, as I understand it, is two fold. First, I am given to understand that Wotc has been approached about a Greyhawk license previosly, most notably by Paizo Publishing, and that no agreement could be reached. Second, the principle reason no agreement could be reached was supposedly Wotc's perception that Greyhawk was too close in flavor or core audience to the Forgotten Realms and that a published Greyhawk setting would thus detract from sales of the Forgotten Realms or, put another way, Wotc had concerns that if both FR and GH were published settings the market for medieval fantasy D&D would be fractured, hurting both properties and the bottom line.

Whether any of the above actually influenced a decision not to have already licensed Greyhawk, I actually believe that as presented in the FRCS and the LGG, FR and GH are too close in feel and potential audience. I think they would fracture the medieval fantasy market and hurt the bottom line. This is where mattcolville's post upthread was right on the money, IMO - "Just being Greyhawk isn't enough, it needs to fill a need that the other settings don't fill." I think this thought should be part of any equation to bring back Greyhawk, whether by Wotc or through a licensee. Greyhawk needs to be clearly distinguishable from the Realms such that overlap in audience appeal is minimized.

While the "high fantasy" vs "low fantasy" differentiation has been offered as a point of distinction, I don't think that would be enough. Of course, the devil is always in the details but it is for this reason that I support restarting Greyhawk in its entirety, keeping material or themes that work for the new design but otherwise charting new territory and in that process making Greyhawk sufficiently distinct from the Forgotten Realms such that the two settings would not be competing for almost the exact same audience. Wotc could certainly undertake such a design and any licensee could be required to present such a design outline as part of the process of having a license approved.

With respect to "core" being considered its own setting, I take your point but I cannot fully agree because a setting is a consistently presented background in which either published adventures or home brewed adventures can be set and by this definition, the "core" presentation is simply not definable as a setting. While an argument could be well constructed that the D&D Gazateer (3.0 Edition) created the necessary "core," I feel this argument fails because almost all of the subsequent Wotc releases make little or no mention or use of the D&D Gazateer in much of any way. The D&D Gazateer has also been allowed to go out of print and was never reissued with the 3.5 Edition. If it was a setting, then, it is now effectively passe.

All this to one side, I am greatly heartened that Greyhawk continues to be mentioned in discussions about settings - and even more heartened that there are discussions about settings! Your raising the possibility of a Greyhawk license as another option is, perhaps most heartening of all. Whether Wotc would chose to redevelop Greyhawk or license the setting to a third party, I think I can speak for any number of Greyhawk fans in urging that the process move forward with all deliberate speed. Or as Larry the Cable Guy would say, "Git 'er done!"

If Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk is a step in this direction - GREAT! I do think it will do well. I would not, however, tie too much consideration of the sales of Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk to the fate of Greyhawk the setting. The two are markedly distinct. Of course, Greyhawk the setting is now out of print and Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk is then to that degree an adventure without a setting. At the same time, Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk, as I understand it, is no attempt to reimagine the setting, even in part, to be distinct from the Realms, a consideration I believe in any thought of a revived Greyhawk as noted above. Rather, Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk is limited in scope (to the Castle and "Free City") and within that scope will hold to a traditionalist approach to Greyhawk in the sense of using familiar and accepted Greyhawk themes/tropes for which the authors have been noted. While sales of Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk should certainly be looked at, I would not see them as either predictive nor as a bell weather. Greyhawk "as is" is, I believe, a nonstarter for the reasons set out above and Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk does not set out to address the factors behind that reasoning. The adventure should be taken on its own terms and welcomed as such but it should not be stretched beyond that, IMO.


Lots of good stuff here thanks for the well thought out post. It's late and I want to go to sleep but I will respond to a couple points.

First in terms of licensed settings, as far as I know although Erik Mona has expressed his fondness for the Greyhawk setting and his wish for Paizo to publish products but I don't think these discussions ever happened in a formal sense.

Second you bring up a good point that there may be too much similarity between certain settings to the point that at first blush most people could probably not tell you the difference between two "medieval settings" like FR and GH. So we may be forced with a tough choice either give fans two classic setting and potentially split the audience or re-format one of the settings to differentiate the two into more distinct settings.
 
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JRRNeiklot said:
A test, eh? I'm sorry, I didn't bring my #2 pencil.

I think it's a test more along the lines of "Do I look fat in this dress?"

The dress is fine in fact you look kind of cute in it. But you're going to have to repeat the thrid grade, the test required cash not a pencil. Sorry. :p
 
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the black knight said:
And I wasn't talking about Living Greyhawk. Believe it or not, there are many who have no interest in the RPGA. I was talking about Greyhawk. Don't act coy and pretend there isn't a difference.
Are you playing coy here pretending there is no overlap between Greyhawk and Living Greyhawk? You know, like the setting? Or are you in the process of excising Living Greyhawk players from Greyhawk fandom?

I don't quite understand why you would be so sore about the RPGA running a campaign set in Greyhawk. From the perspective of a old fan grasping at any news of Greyhawk's popularity I would imagine you'd be pleased to see Scott lumping in the solid, known, play numbers in the RPGA's Greyhawk campaign as fans of Greyhawk . . . whether you like the campaign or not. Especially if those numbers are a factor used to weigh offering published products for sale.
 

Shadeydm said:
Did you read this reply Umbran? If this isn't the old shell game I don't know what is. The poster he is replying brought up some excellent points which were summarily dismissed with yes we do support Greyhawk BS. If discussions about setting support for Greyhawk have usually been on the table for the last 8 years how does nothing get done in that time? Its hard to imagine a meeting that takes place once a month or even once a quarter for eight years that Greyhawk was brought up everytime and yet got nothing published. Sorry, but I am not buying that bridge in Florida. I for one am glad someone had the stones to call BULLCRAP when they read it.

Ok well I guess coming on here and trying to be honest is a waste of time. Next time I post about topics of internal meetings I'll be sure to lie since telling the truth seems to be getting nowhere.

Good times, thanks for the contribution....not. :(

BTW I have worked on the brand for 18 months so although the history of what has happened in the past is not lost on me 1) I am not my predecessor 2) things change 3) I don't make it a habbit of BSing people.
 
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Scott_Rouse said:
First in terms of licensed settings, as far as I know although Erik Mona has expressed his fondness for the Greyhawk setting and his wish for Paizo to publish products these discussions never happened.

To be clear, all of these discussions happened before Scott's tenure.

Sounds like it might be a good idea to start them again. :)

--Erik
 

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