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Lone Wolf sends Cease & Desist letters to anyone using the term 'Army Builder'

As a strong supporter of free speech everywhere and an advocate of greatly restricted copy-rights I say:

1) Boycott the bastards pre-emptively.

2) If anyone is forced to eliminate the term "Army Builder" from their website, then they should also eliminate all mention of "White Wolf Games" and all mention of White Wolf products.
 

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As a strong supporter of free speech everywhere and an advocate of greatly restricted copy-rights I say:

1) Boycott the bastards pre-emptively.

2) If anyone is forced to eliminate the term "Army Builder" from their website, then they should also eliminate all mention of "White Wolf Games" and all mention of White Wolf products.

Lone Wolf is not White Wolf. :blush:

This is what I hate about "mob mentality". My bet is half the people commenting here never bought either a PP or LW product, yet now people are rallying to one and reviling the other. Ideology is worthless unless you get facts and make an informed decision.
 

<snip> My bet is half the people commenting here never bought either a PP or LW product, yet now people are rallying to one and reviling the other. <snip>

LOL Good point. I have never heard of them.

I am for people protecting their property. However, economic forces being what they are, generic product names will always have this problem. Sorry Band-Aid...
 

[sarcasm]
You know, I have to applaud Lone Wolf for one thing: Generously hiring the old TSR legal staff. In these economic times, it is hard for anyone to find work these days, never mind overzealous incompetent lawyers. So kudos to you, Lone Wolf, for reaching out to these poor souls and magnanimously giving them a paycheck! If more game companies acted like you, the world would be a very different place.
[/sarcasm]

In all seriousness, I tried Hero Lab* for Mutants and Masterminds. In my opinion, it was horrible.

*Hero Lab(R) is a registered trademark of Lone Wolf Development, used without permission. Its use in this forum post is not in any way intended to challenge, infringe, or dilute their legal rights to the aforementioned trademarked term. All legal rights to the term Hero Lab(R) according to US Patent and Copyright law are acknowledged to belong to Lone Wolf Development exclusively. All standard disclaimers apply. I am not a lawyer, I don't even play one on TV or in role-playing games, so nothing in this post can be construed as legal advise. This post is provided as-is, with no warranty (implied or otherwise) as to fitness or suitability for any purpose whatsoever. Please, oh Mr. Lone Wolf sir, don't sick your lawyers on me! Congratulations on reading this far. Yes, this part of the post is meant as sarcasm also. Thank you.
 

As a strong supporter of free speech everywhere and an advocate of greatly restricted copy-rights I say...

I will note, just for the sake of correctness - this is not a copyright issue.

This is a trademark issue. Trademarks are a form of intellectual property, but it is different than a copyright, legally speaking.
 

Lone Wolf is not White Wolf. :blush:

This is what I hate about "mob mentality". My bet is half the people commenting here never bought either a PP or LW product, yet now people are rallying to one and reviling the other. Ideology is worthless unless you get facts and make an informed decision.

I own a paid for copy of HeroLab and paid for the Pathfinder plug-in and well as the Mutants and Masterminds plug-in. I also own several Warmachine Cygnar mini's as well as the rule book for Warmachine. I'm not some guy who's just jumping on board to boycott them just to say that I'm going to do it.

It's absolutely possible to be legally correct and STILL be a douchebag about it. In which case a person being IN THE RIGHT, doesn't necessarily make them RIGHT. LW could have gone about this differently, but they actively chose not to. While they provide a product that I use and like, so does PP. I'll be thinking hard about giving LW any more of my money.
 

JohnRTroy=win.

Thank you for your earlier lengthy post, it was very nuanced. You clarified some things about trademark law I was curious about.

Still, my gut reaction to this is that it's unjust. Lone Wolf seems to have gotten its legal high ground from a technicality. It would make sense to me that "Army Builder" wasn't contested for either of two reasons.

1) Developers of similar technology didn't include "Army Builder" in their trademark registration because they named their product something like "Roster Monster" or "ListLord" or "Jibberyjoo"...in other words they gave their product a proper name rather than naming it by exactly what it did. In the minds of these developers, "army builder" was likely a phrase they used to describe their product's function.

2) There simply wasn't an attempt by another firm to compete with Lone Wolf, either because of a perceived insufficient market or because those people developing similar tools had no intent to market them for profit. In this latter, and I think much more likely case, Lone Wolf is asserting a right to preclude these other people from using a term common in wargaming parlance simply because the private developers had no desire to enter the market competition.
This strikes me as unfair. People make these excel tools, and they should be well within their rights to distribute them freely among their peers if they want to. It seems to me that Lone Wolf is concerned with losing profits due to competition by these freeware tools, but they know they don't have a copyright claim so they're asserting a trademark dispute instead. Amusingly enough, it's a trademark that nobody was even aware of.

I think it's important to distinguish Army Builder from products like Xerox, cellophane, elevator(escalator?), thermos, Google, etc. All of the members of the latter list became words in common use because the general population over time came to consider the product name as synonymous with its function. I personally only say I'm going to Google something if I intend to use Google's search engine, but I'm sure there are plenty of people who think of "googling it" as meaning generally to perform a web search. Similarly, Thermos became so popular that people think of any receptacle meant to keep their liquid item at its desired temperature over time as being a thermos. Now turn back the clock. Before Google became a firm, would it ever have occurred to anyone to refer to web searching as Googling? Would anyone have thought to say "xerox" when they meant "make a copy of"? Nope, not at all.
Army Builder, on the other hand, is a phrase that certainly existed before Lone Wolf registered their trademark. I don't know enough to dispute their claim that they are the reason it's a ubiquitous term, but I'm leaning to the side of that claim is false. Keep in mind that I'm not arguing per existing law, I'm just arguing from a basic perspective of fairness; I don't know much about trademark law. My basic problem here is that Lone Wolf is claiming all these rights to their mark that I didn't know existed. Until today, I had no idea there was a software specifically called "Army Builder." I've heard the term used since I was in middle school (when I was exposed to Warhammer), and I always assumed it referred to some tool or program that helped one build their army list. Before today, I would have referred to any excel tool or published software that performed that function as "an army builder" without any knowledge of the product from which the phrase supposedly originated. Lone Wolf hasn't been around long enough to claim the venerable status of the genericized mark. Escalator is in the dictionary as a word because it has been around for a really really long time, and nobody even remembers when it was a brand name. "Army Builder" is being used in common parlance simply because it's a succinct way to describe the excel tools people are making on their own, and this has nothing to do with the brand. If I make a tool that helps me build an army, I'm not going to call it a roster generation tool...I'm going to call it an army builder. I think this is just a common sense argument in support of the proposition that Army Builder should be too generic to trademark.

Um...I could keep rambling, but I have Con Law to read
 

Nope - they demanded that Privateer edit conversations on their forums between members of the public to change any reference to the concept of an "army builder" to something else.

The "don't call your product an army builder" part I can get on board with. That's a little heavy handed, but understandable.

The "edit the public's conversations to change any reference to army-builder-type-products" to a generic term? Nope. Can't support that.

1. I see, you're right. That's just silly.
2. That's the only part of what they requested that made any sense.
3. Yeah, they're being retarded. They can try and control language, but they're going to lose, and they're going to waste time, resources and fans in the process.

On an ironic note, I didn't realize that this company has NOTHING to do with Lone Wolf RPG or gamebooks, and they have nothing to do with Lone Wolf & Cub (the manga)... and I thought they, at-least, had something to do with the games! I'm totally mistaken, talk about confusion - and aren't they in the same industry (games?)

I'm not even an idiot in hurry.
 

A friend of mine has HeroLab. Runs it on his Macbook Pro. Really likes it and is using it for Pathfinder characters for our upcoming campaign. I had actually been thinking about picking it up.

But I guess knowing the company engages in this level of douchbaggery is getting me to consider spending my money elsewhere...
 

Greetings,

I just noticed this thread here on ENWorld, so I figured I better make myself available to answer questions and, in a few cases, clarify matters that seem to be misunderstood.

Please note that I am *not* an attorney. I've talked at great length with our IP attorney, so I know a fair bit about this stuff, but it's distinctly possible that I'll not get something exactly correct. If I do, please point out where my language needs tweaking, and I can always check back with our IP attorney to get specifics, if necessary.

Thanks, Rob
 

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