D&D (2024) Long rests getting better but GM needs still not being considered

tetrasodium

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I am speaking form experience that ANY issue is just open communication. I am also speaking as both a player and a DM that sees that having a 5mwd is NOT always people being abusive... sometimes it just makes sense. That's the problem with D&D in general, the system is not designed to bend with the game story.
that sounds familiar...
you've forgotten a phrase like "they realized the old style was unpopular and shouldn't be used anymore" or "more of us are in favor of these rests than your half baked homebrew rests" and "look at all the infighting you are creating, this is supposed to be a game, try talking to [players] if you think there is a problem & see what you can do to work out your problem because we need this rest". Of course if it's the former...
yea guess that's why
The trouble with just pawning a system problem off on a demand that the GM engage in a discussion is that 5e takes too many steps elsewhere to ensure that the GM starts off standing in quicksand and that the players have no needs at stake should they simply decline to participate & twiddle their thumbs while some fraction of the group(maybe just a single player) makes clear that there is no room for compromise in their self insert power fantasy. half baked Solutions like gritty realism just make the problem worse because too many things are linked to time rather than rests & the GM will be nerfing some things by switching & ridiculously buffing others in ways that will require wave after wave of "surprise" unannounced nerfs as they are stumbled across.

Lets try this again. If my party is taking a rest after 1 encounter and I don't know why, I am not going to punish them, I am going to ask them "Hey why rest now?". If my players ARE trying to abuse the system (not something I am used to anymore but HAVE years ago delt with it) I would talk about why I don't like it and find a way to come to an understanding.
There are times you have to part ways (and passive aggressive "No benefit even though you got 8 hours of rest cause I say so" is totally one I would split from). I have even (way back in 3e) had to ask players to leave for abuse of rules and not getting into the flow of the group, and I had players leave.

The most resent split was with a guy I don't understand his disconnect, and I thought we were doing well. However even that wasn't us refuseing to talk things out.

Even your example starts off churning that quicksand with Evard's by setting up a no win loaded question where either the GM doesn't know why the players are taking a rest they don't feel appropriate to give -or- the GM is punishing the players. The idea that the GM could be the one in the right is not even on the table until they can prove otherwise & the players have no incentive to listen to that attempt in good faith by design of a system that strips away every PC facing pressure for new players to develop the idea that player:GM cross table relationship has symbiotic elements & that the GMisn't just their adversary while taking so many steps to ensure the GM can't look reasonable to their players when trying to subvert the system this way
 

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FallenRX

Adventurer
Huh. I'd argue that a significant portion (I wouldn't say 90% though) of 5e's problems are "4e did it that way, and people didn't like 4e, so let's go back to the old way."

Also, I would argue that if players keep wanting to rest in order to refill their abilities and hp, attrition is a bad basis for adventure design.
No but they held on to a lot of the design of 4e. Like its style of resting which made sense for a 4e-styled AEDU-based game, where big tactical combats are the point, and long attrition-based adventures are discouraged, but not for a old school-styled resource-based game like they were designing 5e, How healing surges are just the hit dice mechanic but dragged out basically over a longer period(thats all short rests really are), the combat focused based designed, but built around a longer adventuring day, where primary resource attrition is combat/resting(a very 4e concept). A lot of this game is just 4E's ideas being reworked into a more "Normal" dnd game, based on 3e(with some 2e influence.). Even remnants of AEDU are in the game, most of the classes abilities are on a literal short/long rest cycle but dragged out over a longer period, with the rest being at will, or on basic resources, usually daily.

Thats why 4E ideas always seem appealing in 5e, because thats how these mechanics were actually meant to work, because of the basis of 4E is still in the game, just redesigned around to fit a longer/dragged out of combat focused attrition instead of big engagements or setpieces, to better fit the more dungeon crawling style of older games(It works but the combat focus leaves a lot of the procedure and resource management of those games, causes it to feel loose, or messy, but it does actually work).

It ends up in this weird middle space where it doesnt do either well enough without some major changes in either direction(Which seems to be the point since they wanted 5e to be more modular like that). And a lot of these holdovers lead to issues in the game's design, them wanting to keep a healing surge-like mechanic with hit dice, dragged out adventuring days to 6-8 per day with medium/Hard encounters, the rest based power design also being like that but dragged out made resource attrition a pain, espeically in a combat focused game like 4e instead of the more expedition forced older style of game, and keeping the 4e paradigm of the rest system(Espeically when some Short rest powers are designed like Encounter powers), when it makes no sense for the game, is simply old overs from their design ethos of 4E, that work against some goals of the game.

But this again, was likely on purpose, because they obviously wanted this game to accommodate all styles of DnD, so you can adjust the game like rests, and power recovery rates, to fit the style you want, but they never actually fleshed out those bit, outside of the thin stuff in the DMG.

Thats why i say 4e holdovers have lead to issues in 5e, because if you look to the origin point about many of the design decisions people have with 5e, then tend to source from 4e in some way. And why solutions that feel good, are simply putting them back into their original context, like short rests being 10 minutes, or skill challenges, or giving power-like systems, or just killing them outright and focusing it on what they want to do. Its something fundamental of the quirks of 4E designers adjusting themselves to a more normal style of dnd game(a lot of 5e's design is very mearls still especially). And yes they wanted to respond to the backlash of 4e, by trying to make a not 4e game, but also wanted to take some of the ideas and keep them, because they felt they were good, and worked well(Whole point of Battle master still existing), they just repackaged it into a format that actually was more like a normal DnD game, while accommodating those who do not like that style as well.(Its probably why the alternate rest systems exists, because they thought adjusting that would change the feel of the game enough since powers are still based on that, this is true too an extent).

In the end, some holdovers work, some didnt, and core 5e is suffering a bit from it, luckily it is adjustable, as intended to fit any style of play with a bit of work(Some easily with just some rest system adjustments), the issue is WoTC wants us to do the work, instead of releasing supplements that do this for us(I feel that was a goal of 5e but they didnt think itd sell so didnt wanna do it.) But that has lead to the rather messy inbetween state of 5e.

TLDR: 5e still has a lot of design ideas that source from 4e, because 5e is meant to be a in between edition that uses all of their ideas, and is meant to be adjustable to all styles of DnD, including 4e, the issue is some of those holdovers in the core game work contrary to the attrition based design of 5e, becuase a lot of 4e's design was around tactical combat, not resource-based expeditions.(Luckily there have ways to adjust this to fit better, mainly their rest adjustment systems).

It was more like, "people didnt like our way, so lets go back to the old way, while keeping what we liked from OUR WAY, just letting their way work well enough too"
 

tetrasodium

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Huh. I'd argue that a significant portion (I wouldn't say 90% though) of 5e's problems are "4e did it that way, and people didn't like 4e, so let's go back to the old way."

Also, I would argue that if players keep wanting to rest in order to refill their abilities and hp, attrition is a bad basis for adventure design.
I don't know. @FallenRX nicely maps out one example in post#92 but it's not the only example. Take the acquisition of treasure shifting from flavors of required magic items & magic item churn present in editions prior to 4e to 4e's treasure parcels. Sure treasure parcels had some amount of good in the way they avoided problems caused when PCs were under & ill equipped but they also eroded the GM's ability to leverage those needs in positive ways. 5e got rid of treasure parcels but wasn't willing to go back the other way so the system just makes it so PCs don't need any magic items & shoves the resulting problems adding them causes onto the GM. The end result is that players can't find themselves under or ill equipped -and- the GM can't use the risk of making it harder to get them if the prince from page 3&4 is killed as a credible concern to factor against taking another rest to help control the pace of their own game.
 

they also eroded the GM's ability to leverage those needs in positive ways
Not trying to turn this into a system debate, but how so? I felt like it was the precise opposite. By getting players to actually say what they wanted, I found it was pretty easy to, if there was an item they wanted sufficiently, make it part of the reward offered by an NPC, or they'd learn it was present in the dungeon or see the villain carrying it or whatever. I felt like that let me leverage that better, but maybe I misunderstand? You didn't ever have to give them the item, and players aren't entitled dumbasses (I mean, if they are, why are they in your group lol?). If they let the villain get away and his was still packing his flameburst greatsword or whatever, well, that's where it went!

I think what was a problem was that because you were expected to have so many items, and they were expected to be of X level of power at Y character level, you had to churn through a lot of stuff. I think a more Earthdawn-like system of enhancing items/bonds with items would have worked better but I always think 4E should have drawn more ideas from Earthdawn (which has some similarities to 4E), so I may be biased!

Personally I'd also say 5E's "no-one neeeeeeeeeeeeeeds magic items" feels more weasel-y and less factual the more I've played 5E, especially from level 5 onwards. It's more like "Only non-casters or people reliant on weapon attacks need magic items". YMMV.
 

FallenRX

Adventurer
Not trying to turn this into a system debate, but how so? I felt like it was the precise opposite. By getting players to actually say what they wanted, I found it was pretty easy to, if there was an item they wanted sufficiently, make it part of the reward offered by an NPC, or they'd learn it was present in the dungeon or see the villain carrying it or whatever. I felt like that let me leverage that better, but maybe I misunderstand? You didn't ever have to give them the item, and players aren't entitled dumbasses (I mean, if they are, why are they in your group lol?). If they let the villain get away and his was still packing his flameburst greatsword or whatever, well, that's where it went!

I think what was a problem was that because you were expected to have so many items, and they were expected to be of X level of power at Y character level, you had to churn through a lot of stuff. I think a more Earthdawn-like system of enhancing items/bonds with items would have worked better but I always think 4E should have drawn more ideas from Earthdawn (which has some similarities to 4E), so I may be biased!

Personally I'd also say 5E's "no-one neeeeeeeeeeeeeeds magic items" feels more weasel-y and less factual the more I've played 5E, especially from level 5 onwards. It's more like "Only non-casters or people reliant on weapon attacks need magic items". YMMV.
Martials needs feats more than magic items, but magic items can take feats place.

But they really werent lying about that, at more you need A magic item to deal with resistances, just a single 1, even just a Moonlight sword. The issue is more central around the game itself than that.
 

Yeah I don't think it's a lie, I just think they're mistaken in claiming not giving out magical items will just slightly lower player power across the board. In reality not having many magic items in the mix, particularly weapons, stat-increasers and armour, pushes full casters ahead significantly further as they're far less impacted by it.
 

FallenRX

Adventurer
Yeah I don't think it's a lie, I just think they're mistaken in claiming not giving out magical items will just slightly lower player power across the board. In reality not having many magic items in the mix, particularly weapons, stat-increasers and armour, pushes full casters ahead significantly further as they're far less impacted by it.
Eh not really, Martials get bigger benefits from just taking martial feats. Magic items can help, but only really if you arent giving them too casters, which just makes their power grow even further beyond, making them even stronger.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
me said:
they also eroded the GM's ability to leverage those needs in positive ways
Including that for clarity
Not trying to turn this into a system debate, but how so? I felt like it was the precise opposite. By getting players to actually say what they wanted, I found it was pretty easy to, if there was an item they wanted sufficiently, make it part of the reward offered by an NPC, or they'd learn it was present in the dungeon or see the villain carrying it or whatever. I felt like that let me leverage that better, but maybe I misunderstand? You didn't ever have to give them the item, and players aren't entitled dumbasses (I mean, if they are, why are they in your group lol?). If they let the villain get away and his was still packing his flameburst greatsword or whatever, well, that's where it went!

I think what was a problem was that because you were expected to have so many items, and they were expected to be of X level of power at Y character level, you had to churn through a lot of stuff. I think a more Earthdawn-like system of enhancing items/bonds with items would have worked better but I always think 4E should have drawn more ideas from Earthdawn (which has some similarities to 4E), so I may be biased!

Personally I'd also say 5E's "no-one neeeeeeeeeeeeeeds magic items" feels more weasel-y and less factual the more I've played 5E, especially from level 5 onwards. It's more like "Only non-casters or people reliant on weapon attacks need magic items". YMMV.

Sometimes the party is under equipped with good reason & deserves it because of problems they created in the world & for the gm, that's a GM toolbox tool less available since 4e. Lets say the campaign is expected to take place in an area involving... I dunno... ten towns & cold themed stuff but bob wants to go elsewhere like silverymoon & you get elsewhere but Alice wants to go somewhere else like thay as soon as you build up a toehold of adventures. Treasure parcels make it harder for the GM to disincentivize that kind of me me me behavior & the "who cares if the prince dies if we rest [to nova every fight]" disregard for the world by using those player choices to add barriers between filling needs/desires while pointlessly fleeing just looking for the edge of the map . It also means that the GM can't include cool little things to be found as easily when players do something unexpected but worthy of finding a minor shiny thing so players don't look for them.
 

Eh not really, Martials get bigger benefits from just taking martial feats. Magic items can help, but only really if you arent giving them too casters, which just makes their power grow even further beyond, making them even stronger.
I just don't really agree I guess, I don't see the caster benefiting from the magic items are much, but I suppose it depends on exactly which you give them.
 


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