D&D (2024) Long rests getting better but GM needs still not being considered

[GMforPowergamers]

I can't tell if you have been citing a personal opinion on the matter or if you've been playing devils advocate to demonstrate the eca t no win group splitting scenario that 5e rests force a gm through when they start trying to put the brakes on the designed in 5mwd.

I am speaking form experience that ANY issue is just open communication. I am also speaking as both a player and a DM that sees that having a 5mwd is NOT always people being abusive... sometimes it just makes sense. That's the problem with D&D in general, the system is not designed to bend with the game story.

If it's the latter I'd say that you've forgotten a phrase like "they realized the old style was unpopular and shouldn't be used anymore" or "more of us are in favor of these rests than your half baked homebrew rests" and "look at all the infighting you are creating, this is supposed to be a game, try talking to us if you think there is a problem & see what you can do to work out your problem because we need this rest". Of course if it's the former...

Lets try this again. If my party is taking a rest after 1 encounter and I don't know why, I am not going to punish them, I am going to ask them "Hey why rest now?". If my players ARE trying to abuse the system (not something I am used to anymore but HAVE years ago delt with it) I would talk about why I don't like it and find a way to come to an understanding.
There are times you have to part ways (and passive aggressive "No benefit even though you got 8 hours of rest cause I say so" is totally one I would split from). I have even (way back in 3e) had to ask players to leave for abuse of rules and not getting into the flow of the group, and I had players leave.

The most resent split was with a guy I don't understand his disconnect, and I thought we were doing well. However even that wasn't us refuseing to talk things out.

 

[Haplo781]

Solved this issue? 4E is the reason this issue exists, no other dnd rest is like 5e's but 4e's.
It started this problem because it wanted to move away from resource attrition to just tactical combat game with powers, and it held over into 5e.
90% of 5e's problems are 4E hold overs that dont work with a actual normal dnd game. Because 5e is and always will be the 4E devs trying to make a normal dnd game.

That's... Certainly a take, I guess.

 

[James Gasik]

That's... Certainly a take, I guess.

A strange one, really. So even though 4e didn't have many problems with the 5 minute workday, the fact that it was based around encounter resources led to issues in 5e's design? I mean, no class in 5e has encounter resources*, so I'm not sure how that works.

*Call me crazy, but I don't think you're supposed to rest for 1 hour after every encounter.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

That's... Certainly a take, I guess.

4e solved the 5mwd in many ways... they were taken away in 5e.

4e had milestones that rewarded you a benefit for having more encounters (every 2)
4e had the main thrust of every class be use 1 big daily and 2-3 encounter powers and the at wills as back up...

in 4e the best use of most characters is to stagger 2 characters pop a daily per encounter at most (unless in case of emergency break glass) not everyone nova then rest.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

A strange one, really. So even though 4e didn't have many problems with the 5 minute workday, the fact that it was based around encounter resources led to issues in 5e's design? I mean, no class in 5e has encounter resources*, so I'm not sure how that works.

*Call me crazy, but I don't think you're supposed to rest for 1 hour after every encounter.

yeah if the short rest was 5-10 mins the fighter and warlock would be per encounter...

the entire base of Action Surge was the Action pt from mile stones so 1/per 2 encounters... but even that I don't often see 2 encounters short rest 2 encounters short rest 2 encounters short rest or long rest after 6...

 

[James Gasik]

4e solved the 5mwd in many ways... they were taken away in 5e.

4e had milestones that rewarded you a benefit for having more encounters (every 2)
4e had the main thrust of every class be use 1 big daily and 2-3 encounter powers and the at wills as back up...

in 4e the best use of most characters is to stagger 2 characters pop a daily per encounter at most (unless in case of emergency break glass) not everyone nova then rest.

Generally, since I never knew how many encounters I would have, I would mostly just use my Dailies up early rather than save them. The way I saw it, making any encounter shorter would save us healing surges for later, just in case.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Generally, since I never knew how many encounters I would have, I would mostly just use my Dailies up early rather than save them. The way I saw it, making any encounter shorter would save us healing surges for later, just in case.

one group I had worked it into a pattern and we had 'assigned' 1st round dailies and 'back up dailies' but once we made the DM go "WHAT!" because he dropped a demon lord on us, and me, kurt, kelly, and jon ALL dropped dailies round 1. When 4 out of 5 players do that the encounter is VERY curtailed... I will never forget kelly saying "We always said incase of emergency break glass... demon lords are a reason to break glass"

and it depends ont he class Barbarians want to rage early, controllers want to hold for a good moment to drop there big save effect.

 

[James Gasik]

one group I had worked it into a pattern and we had 'assigned' 1st round dailies and 'back up dailies' but once we made the DM go "WHAT!" because he dropped a demon lord on us, and me, kurt, kelly, and jon ALL dropped dailies round 1. When 4 out of 5 players do that the encounter is VERY curtailed... I will never forget kelly saying "We always said incase of emergency break glass... demon lords are a reason to break glass"

and it depends ont he class Barbarians want to rage early, controllers want to hold for a good moment to drop there big save effect.

Yeah this is true, most controller dailies need very specific setups to function ideally. Which usually led to me going "oh this would be a great fight to use Fountain of Flame!" and I'd just do it, because again, who knew what a future fight would be like?

On the other hand, yeah, if your daily just does big damage, turning an Elite into fine red mist at first opportunity seems perfectly legit to me.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Yeah this is true, most controller dailies need very specific setups to function ideally. Which usually led to me going "oh this would be a great fight to use Fountain of Flame!" and I'd just do it, because again, who knew what a future fight would be like?

On the other hand, yeah, if your daily just does big damage, turning an Elite into fine red mist at first opportunity seems perfectly legit to me.

yup and a warlord bonus on action pts combined wit a stiker going big encounter then big daily could make solos worry

My biggest gripe with 4e (and 5e) is HPs are all too high... but I have SO seen them not matter in the right moments

 

[Staffan]

Solved this issue? 4E is the reason this issue exists, no other dnd rest is like 5e's but 4e's.
It started this problem because it wanted to move away from resource attrition to just tactical combat game with powers, and it held over into 5e.
90% of 5e's problems are 4E hold overs that dont work with a actual normal dnd game. Because 5e is and always will be the 4E devs trying to make a normal dnd game.

Huh. I'd argue that a significant portion (I wouldn't say 90% though) of 5e's problems are "4e did it that way, and people didn't like 4e, so let's go back to the old way."

Also, I would argue that if players keep wanting to rest in order to refill their abilities and hp, attrition is a bad basis for adventure design.