Long Spear = Awl Pike?

[BLACKDIRGE]

Somewhat overpowered in my opinion.

d10 damage? Can hit creatures at 15' AND 10'? Who cares if you take a penalty, it means you THREATEN at 10' also (total of 40 squares I believe)! Compare that to a Heavy Poleaxe or Great Spear (which are the best 10' reach exotic weapons I am aware of), and ANYONE would want to take the Sarissa over those any day of the week.

Someone with improved trip and combat reflexes would simply wipe the floor with such a weapon.

Really? More overpowered than a spiked chain?

I think the inability to strike adjacent creatures, that fact that it requires a feat to use, not to mention the logistics problem of toting a twenty-foot pole around, more than makes up for its damage and reach. But YMMV.

BD

 

[Mistwell]

Really? More overpowered than a spiked chain?

I think the inability to strike adjacent creatures, that fact that it requires a feat to use, not to mention the logistics problem of toting a twenty-foot pole around, more than makes up for its damage and reach. But YMMV.

BD

Yes, really.

Compare it to existing 10' reach exotic weapons, such as the Heavy Poleaxe and Great Spear (neither of which can attack adjacent squares, and both of which have a logistics issue in theory). It does 1.5 damage less than they do, but covers 24 more squares for threatening. Think about the magnitude of 24 more squares of threatening. You're flanking with virtually the entire battlefield.

 

[Mistwell]

How so, if the sarissa can't be used to Trip?

-Hyp.

True. It's just combat reflexes. And sneak attack damage would be helpful.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Compare it to existing 10' reach exotic weapons. It does 1.5 damage less than they do, but covers 24 more squares for threatening. Think about the magnitude of 24 more squares of threatening. You're flanking with virtually the entire battlefield.

But unlike the guisarme, spiked chain, or whip, it can't be used to trip... and you'll still only get to make a single AoO as someone closes with you.

-Hyp.

 

[Mistwell]

But unlike the guisarme, spiked chain, or whip, it can't be used to trip... and you'll still only get to make a single AoO as someone closes with you.

-Hyp.

I am comparing it to other similar exotic reach weapons: great spear and heavy poleaxe.

You can make an AOO against most of the friggen battlefield Hyp! FOURTY squares are covered! Take a level of Exotic Weapon Master, and you're flanking with allies THAT ARE NEXT TO YOU!

 

[BLACKDIRGE]

Yes, really.

Compare it to existing 10' reach exotic weapons, such as the Heavy Poleaxe and Great Spear (neither of which can attack adjacent squares, and both of which have a logistics issue in theory). It does 1.5 damage less than they do, but covers 24 more squares for threatening. Think about the magnitude of 24 more squares of threatening. You're flanking with virtually the entire battlefield.

I see your point, I really do. I just don't think its out of line when compared to other exotic weapons, namely the spiked chain, which also allows you to threaten many sqaures at no penalty, and trip, and disarm.

BD

 

[Mistwell]

Hmm. I'd thought it was specific to 10 foot reach, not to all reach.

... is that quote actually an accurate reflection of the rules? The note is not in the PHB, and it's not in the SRD available from the WotC site. It looks like someone's added it to the Hypertext SRD.

The note in the PHB is "For instance, a longspear-wielding human threatens all squares 10 feet (2 squares) away, even diagonally. This is an exception to the rule that 2 squares of diagonal distance is measured as 15 feet."

By my reading, the exception is for 10 foot reach, not for all reach.

Your reading is as strict constructionist as they come

When something says "for instance", to me that means "one example, included in this rule but not limited to just this example, is..." The exception is to reach weapons. And example of a 10' reach weapon is given. There is no reason to believe they mean JUST 10' reach weapons, as that would make no sense at all, and would not be a "for instance".

 

[Mistwell]

I see your point, I really do. I just don't think its out of line when compared to other exotic weapons, namely the spiked chain, which also allows you to threaten many sqaures at no penalty, and trip, and disarm.

BD

So you're saying it should be compared to the most powerful, most abused weapon in the game as opposed to all the normal similar weapons?

There are big sticks with points on the end that are exotic. Compare it to them. Whip and Chain are similar to each other, but not polearms.

I think threatening at 15' and d8 damage is more than enough for an exotic weapon. d10 and threatening at 10' and 15' is just over the top.

 

[BLACKDIRGE]

So you're saying it should be compared to the most powerful, most abused weapon in the game as opposed to all the normal similar weapons?

Again we have a differcne of opinion. I think the spiked chain is powerful, but I don't think its crazy over the top. I've had players use them in my game without incident.

There are big sticks with points on the end that are exotic. Compare it to them. Whip and Chain are similar to each other, but not polearms.

It's a d20 product, so I compared it to the only exotic reach weapons in the PHB, and I found it to be less powerful than the spiked chain.

I did playtest this, and it didn't play any more powerful than a greataxe or greatsword.

I think threatening at 15' and d8 damage is more than enough for an exotic weapon. d10 and threatening at 10' and 15' is just over the top.

I respect your opinion. I just don't agree with you.

Well, I think this debate has run its course. Any more and we'll just be flogging the slain equine.

BD

 

[Hypersmurf]

Your reading is as strict constructionist as they come

When something says "for instance", to me that means "one example, included in this rule but not limited to just this example, is..." The exception is to reach weapons. And example of a 10' reach weapon is given. There is no reason to believe they mean JUST 10' reach weapons, as that would make no sense at all, and would not be a "for instance".

Well, my understanding of that rule is that without the 10 foot exception, it's possible to close on a character with a longspear without ever provoking an AoO, by approaching on the diagonal - you leave a square 15 feet from the character and enter a square 5 feet from the character. Obviously, at some stage in your movement in analogue terms, you pass through a point which is 10 feet from the opponent... but since the movement is digital, no threatened square is left, and no AoO is provoked.

This doesn't happen for a large creature with a reach weapon - 15 and 20 feet means that at least one threatened square must always be left. Nor for a huge creature, with his inclusive reach of fifteen feet - there are no gaps in the line that can be slipped through.

Frank demonstrated that the same problem exists for exclusive 15 foot reach... but in the core rules, there isn't anything that has exclusive 15 foot reach.

So the exception was made to close the gap for a 10 foot reach; no exception is necessary for larger numbers, because no gaps exist.

The example given is one instance of "However, Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons threaten more squares than a typical creature." So yes, the exception covers more than just a human with a longspear; it also covers a dwarf with a glaive, or a halfling with a guisarme, or a kobold with a ranseur, or any other example of a Small or Medium creature wielding a reach weapon. And in all the examples of Small or Medium creatures wielding a reach weapon - the examples that the exception covers - the reach is 10 feet. Not 15, or 20, or 60.

-Hyp.