Longinius and the spear of destiny

[Dogbrain]

Slight change. There was a Japanese Sorcerer who had the holy grail that kept the Allied Superheroes out of the Pacific theater. Also according to this web site.

http://ourworld.cs.com/argentprime/spear.htm

The mind control effect was against "Heroes vunerable to Magic", what ever that means. Though as we all know Sups has no defenses vs magic.

That was the original story, cooked up by Roy Thomas, although you don't quite have it right. The original was that it worked against mystical beings and those vulnerable to magic. However, it didn't explain why somebody like Starman and the Flash didn't just hop on over and kick Nazi buttocks. So it now is supposed to have worked against everybody.

 

[The_Universe]

I'll chime in on the connection of the spear to Celtic Myth. At the core of the Celtic Mythos there are three artifacts: A Cauldron, a Spear, and something else that I can't remember...Almost all of the Arthurian legends and stories connected with quests for the Holy Grail and the Bleeding Lance are corruptions and modernizations of older Celtic myths about the cauldron and the spear of Lugh, Christianized for a new audience.

In some modern "historical" fantasy, there is an effort to connect the two things...Longinus is actually wielding an ancient artifact of some power when he stabs the Big Guy, and the cup that catches his blood is an old artifact of power, as well.

On the spear itself, there are some conspiracy-style stories that have it ending up in Scotland, under the control of a band of Knights Templar who fought with Robert the Bruce against England...in those versions, it's now controlled by inernational Freemasonry. You know--shriners! Hah!

 

[Samothdm]

The concept of the "Wandering Jew" is also found in the legend of La Befana , the Christmastime "gift-giver" in Italy. Legends states that the 3 Kings stopped at La Befana's house on their way to Bethlehem. After dining with her, they invited her to follow them while they followed the star to Bethlehem. She declined, stating that she needed to wash and clean. Later, she changed her mind, gather up some gifts to give the child, and decided to follow them, but it was too late. She wasn't able to find either the 3 Kings or the child, and she's been searching ever since. On the eve of January 6th (the Feast of the 3 Kings), she distributes gifts to good children in Italy, or coal to bad ones.

On another note, I did some research on the Spear of Longinus for a book I was writing a few years ago. It strikes me that it would make a good relic for use in a Blood & Relics campaign for d20 Modern.

 

[direheroics]

I'm actually surprised that no one has touched on the legend of why everyone wants the spear, and some of its legendary owners...

Much of the mythology surround the Spear of Destiny revolves around the Indiana Jones like ideal that it can be used at the head of any army to lead them to victory, and that losing it is the sign that divine favor has left you...

Barbarossa won many a battle, until he drowned in a river after falling from his horse, spear passed on, HRE slowly declined....

Hitler had it, Then Americans came into Berlin, taking the artifact, Germany falls....

Etc, etc, etc. And that's if you believe much of the conspiracy theories surrounding it.

It's like the scabbard of Excalibur being more powerful than the sword (granted immortality). The sight of the spear is a sign of divine favor and makes an army undefeatable. Imagine fantasy kings fighting to recover that kind of artifact...

As for Longinus, in reality he did become a martyred saint, stoned to death as reported earlier. Roman soldiers used to roam battlefields after battles, striking the heart with their spear in order to end the life of those who were injured on the field of battle. There is conflicting information as to whether this was done out of mercy or necessity though. His immortality would be a confusion with the Wandering Jew story (which also has about a dozen different versions). But as this is a curse laid down by Jesus (a supposedly very nice guy by most accounts), the story seems out of place.

BTW--The spear in the People's History (or Heritage) Museum in Austria (Used to be Hapbsburg Museum) is the one that is referred to as disproven. You should be able to find a picture of it online without much trouble.

Best of luck!

direheroics

 

[Professor Phobos]

People have already covered most of the important bits. The most recent appearance of the Lance of the Hapsburgs was in Hellboy- the BPRD had it in a case.

 

[Viking Bastard]

Slight change. There was a Japanese Sorcerer who had the holy grail that kept the Allied Superheroes out of the Pacific theater. Also according to this web site which seems to be a very good summary of the history of the Spear in the DC universe.

http://ourworld.cs.com/argentprime/spear.htm

The mind control effect was against "Heroes vunerable to Magic", what ever that means. Though as we all know Sups has no defenses vs magic.

That version is actually outdated, being the pre-crisis version.

The new version mentioned earlier was first introduced in the
The Golden Age miniseries (which is only semi-canon) but was
brought into official continuity in the most recent Starman series.

 

[Zappo]

On a side note: the Spear of Destiny (aka the Holy Lance, the Bleeding Lance) is one of the big relics, second only to the Grail. There are legends that it is a terrible weapon that should not be used. Striking someone with it is sacrilege and incurs divine wrath. In Arthurian legends it was used to deal the Dolorous Stroke. This caused a wound which would not heal, rendered the wielder of the lance unconscious for days, set off an earthquake, and turned three kingdoms into a Wasteland.

An earthquake turning three kingdoms into a wasteland, and the target is only wounded? Either it was used against a Frenzied Berserker, or this is one of those Final Fantasy-style attacks which apparently blow up the planet and somehow only deal 300 damage out of 5600.

 

[Shag]

Oh, BTW, I've taken some latin and I'm pretty sure his name is pronounced
Lon-GIN-us
G as in gun

er...thats my 2 sesterces.....

 

[fnork de sporg]

In the issue of DC Secret Origins featuring featuring the JSA hitler gains the Spear of Destiny and uses it to summon unkillable valkerie warriors that assasinate the president, as well as make his super bomber planes fly incredibly fast so they could reach DC in minutes. In this post-crisis version there is no "mind control field" and the heroes are actively opposing the nazis, though at the time it was set america had not yet entered the war, nor japan. At no point is it explained or touched upon as to why the spear the pierced christ's side would summon female warriors from norse myth, bu there you go.





In another version of the spear's legend that I heard the spear predates christ and its shaft is made from the staff of Moses. At the crusifixion it is used by a mortal agent of god to kill jesus, not out of hatred or pity but because Jesus was technically immortal and no other weapon could kill him. And if he did not die by human hands the Redemption would not succeed. The Wandering Jew, in the versions where he's not Cain, is said in this probably modern version of the tale, took the burden of Jesus's immortality upon him self for the same reason, and will return it when jesus returns from the afterlife. Eventually the spear was put to rest inside one of the columns in St Peters to insure that it would never be used again.

 

[Olive]

I'll chime in on the connection of the spear to Celtic Myth. At the core of the Celtic Mythos there are three artifacts: A Cauldron, a Spear, and something else that I can't remember...Almost all of the Arthurian legends and stories connected with quests for the Holy Grail and the Bleeding Lance are corruptions and modernizations of older Celtic myths about the cauldron and the spear of Lugh, Christianized for a new audience.

Great thread guys!

Ok, so I know abit about the wandering jew and the spear of destiny and the grail, but I know nothing of the pre-christian analogs.

So what's the deal with the cauldron and the spear of Lugh?

Also, do the Holy Blood Holy Grail people talk about the Spear of Destiny/Bleeding Lace?