Longinius and the spear of destiny

[Sir Elton]

As for the Roar version, I always saw it as a conflation of the story of Longinus and that of the Wandering Jew (who has various names, such as Malchus or Ahasuerus), who is doomed to immortality till Judgement Day.

You mean John the Beloved, right? John the Beloved is one of the original Apostles. Of all the original 12, John had asked if he could remain on Earth to spread the Gospel until the Second Coming. Christ was so pleased with his request that he translated his body so that death will not come to him.

As for the legends of the Spear of Destiny, and the Holy Grail, they were just a spear and a cup. Nothing special about them except in how they were used. They do make great fodder for myth and stories, though! The Spear of Destiny can be used in any number of campaigns: from Unknown Armies' brand of horror to Classic Fantasy.

 

[Shemeska]

Far as I know the Holy Blood Holy Grail folks never mentioned the Lance. As has already been said they concentrated on their own case for Merovingian descent from Christ and Mary Magdalene. Unfortunately for them the largest bit of evidence they claim for their conspiracy theories, the french secret society calling itself the Priory of Sion, was later found to be a modern day hoax perpetrated by a single man. No mention of this is made in any of the subsequent reprints of Lincoln's book however... *shrug*

The development of the Lance mythology, the various incarnations of the Wandering Jew story (most of which I wasn't familiar with till you guys began talking about it), and the recent origin of the bloodline conspiracy theories are fascinating in and of themselves, regardless of the elaborations over time and intermixing with other legends in the case of the first two, and a mix of questionable scholarship (and the authors getting taken in head over heels by fraudulent documents) mixed with the modern delight in making conspiricies in the last case.

Man I love Enworld, you guys rock.

 

[RangerWickett]

One little thing I can contribute, and even this is faulty because I don't really know French, but:

sang royal is Royal Blood
san grayal is Holy Grail

 

[Green Knight]

Yeah, I read "Holy Blood, Holy Grail", too. The book's interesting reading, but I don't suggest moving it from the "fiction" section of the library to the "non-fiction" section anytime soon. Like any other conspiracy theory, whether it be the "face" on Mars, the alien visitation of Roswell, or the existence of Atlantis, you can come up with billions of incidental "facts" that seem to prove your thesis, but like Cousin Vinny would say, it's all just an illusion. Merovingians, Roswell, Atlantis, etc, different pile, same stink.

FWIW either The History or Discovery channels recently aired a show about the scientific testing of the Hapsburg Lance. The results are as mentioned by Dogbrain.

Yeah, I saw that (It was The History Channel). It was dated to right about the time of Charlemagne. So what seems likely is that either A) The people who Charlemagne had hired to find the spear didn't find it, so they made a fake one and gave it to Charlemagne, or B) Charlemagne himself was behind the forgery. Either way, it wasn't the one wielded by Saint Morris. It was that spear which then ended up in Hitlers hands. Still an interesting pedigree, from Charlemagne to Hitler, but certainly not the Spear of St. Morris or the Spear of Longinus.

Though the nail in it WAS from the time of the crucifixion, though there's no evidence that it was actually used on Jesus. Just that it's from the right time. My guess is that whoever created the fraudulent spear DID manage to get their hands on a crucifixion nail. That nail probably came with stories about how it was used to crucify Jesus, and so on. So not being able to get the actual spear, they probably decided to go for the next best thing, and stuck a nail which they believed was used to crucify Jesus in their fake spear. They probably figured their spear would be just as holy as the real one, so long as some part of it had drawn Christ's blood.

On a game related note, I had an idea for using the Spear of Destiny, along with the Holy Grail and the Sword of David (Could also throw in the Shroud of Turin, now that it appears it ISN'T fake after all. Seems the method they used to carbon date the thing was seriously flawed, with them testing newer fabric put into it to repair it during the Middle Ages, rather then taking a sample from the older parts) together, for either the Buffy, the Vampire Slayer RPG or D20 Modern. Like the Regalia of Good from Book of Exalted Deeds, give them each individual powers, but if possessed by the same person their power is amplified and they have new powers or something like that. I dunno. I didn't put that much thought into it. I oughta put it to paper someday, I guess.

BTW: I used to watch Roar, too. It seemed like a Braveheart rip-off at first, but I liked it, overall. Good show. To bad it got cancelled.

 

[shilsen]

You mean John the Beloved, right? John the Beloved is one of the original Apostles. Of all the original 12, John had asked if he could remain on Earth to spread the Gospel until the Second Coming. Christ was so pleased with his request that he translated his body so that death will not come to him.

No, I wasn't referencing this particular story, though I'm aware of it. That's just one of the various examples of the Wandering Jew figure.

 

[VirgilCaine]

Cool thread.

On a side note: the Spear of Destiny (aka the Holy Lance, the Bleeding Lance) is one of the big relics, second only to the Grail. There are legends that it is a terrible weapon that should not be used. Striking someone with it is sacrilege and incurs divine wrath. In Arthurian legends it was used to deal the Dolorous Stroke. This caused a wound which would not heal, rendered the wielder of the lance unconscious for days, set off an earthquake, and turned three kingdoms into a Wasteland.

Neat.

That;s why non-powered heroes like the Americommando, the Manhunter, Sgt. Rock, the Losers and the Haunted Tank

Where can I find info about these guys? My kinda superheroes--normal guys with guns!

In the issue of DC Secret Origins featuring featuring the JSA hitler gains the Spear of Destiny and uses it to summon unkillable valkerie warriors that assasinate the president, as well as make his super bomber planes fly incredibly fast so they could reach DC in minutes.

And thus pin the pilots to their seats with G-forces...

 

[Guillaume]

I thought this might interest some of you. Jason McKay from Ronin Arts proposed some stats for the Spear of Destiny in his PDF 101 Legendary Treasures of Medieval Europe. This is what he proposed :

THE SPEAR OF DESTINY

History/Description :The Holy Lance, also known as the Spear of Longinus, the Dolorous Stroke or the Bleading Lance; was the very spear which pierced Jesus by the Roman cenuturion Longinus, while Jesus was being crucified. Certainly one of the most powerful weapons to exist, it has been used and searched by powerful soldiers and kings alike. Supposedly it has been possessed y Constantine, St. Maurice, Charlemagne, and Frederick of Barbarossa. Legends also tell of when it was wielded by the warrior Balin who used it to help King Arthur consolidate his power over England, which caused a curse on Balin for using the Holy artifact for a destructive purpose, which is something that almost all who wish to possess it fail to understand.

Special properties : The Spear of Destiny is a holy weapon and relic which is a Long spear with a +7 enchanted bonus and functions as a Defending, Ghost Touch, Holy, Keen (Critical attacks cause x4 damage) and Wounding weapon. Additionally, it has an enchanted Piercing Attack which causes and opponene to lose 1 point from their Constitution upon each hit, which can only be cured by a Cure Critical Wound spell for each individual point lost or a Heal spell. The Holy Lance also causes an additional 2d10 points of damage vs. all Undead, and 4d10 additional points against all Evil Outsiders. The Spear of Destiny also functions like a Heavy Lance when used while mounted, and does double damage agains all opponents. However, anytime an opponent is killed (including superficial wound, such as with the Wounding ability or loss of Constitution) with the spear (with the exceptions of the Undead and Evil Outsiders), the wielder has a curs put upon them for using the Holy artifact as a weapon of destruction, the cursed victim loses all ability score bonuses to combat, skills and saving throws, and additionally they have a -10 to all attack, skill and saving throw rols, and have an Insanity spell permanently bestowed on them. This curse can only be removed by finding a Good aligned priest to cast a Geas / Quest spell on the character, and only after the Geas/Quest is performed is the beings curse broken. In addition to it's properties as a weapon, the Holy Lance has several other holy powers bestowed upon it, Spell Resistance (25), and the following spell-like powers as if cast by a 21st level spell caster : Mass Heal (2/day), Greater Restoration (2/day), True Resurrection (1/week), Greater Dispelling of Chaos, Evil (at will), Daylight (at will) and Slay Living (at will).

Weight : 6 lb.

Maybe not the most perfect adaptation, but still interesting. Have a good read and some fun.

 

[Dogbrain]

One little thing I can contribute, and even this is faulty because I don't really know French, but:

sang royal is Royal Blood
san grayal is Holy Grail

No, that's just miserable pidgin invented as a fraud by a hoaxster, and you've mis-spelled his pidgin, on top of it.

 

[Dogbrain]

You mean John the Beloved, right? John the Beloved is one of the original Apostles. Of all the original 12, John had asked if he could remain on Earth to spread the Gospel until the Second Coming. Christ was so pleased with his request that he translated his body so that death will not come to him.

This, by the way, is a purely Western tale. It contradicts Eastern Christian Tradition, which maintains quite firmly that St John the Theologian lived to the age of 100 (or so) and then died among his students in Ephesus (which is where his tomb is held to exist to the present day).

Jesus said to him, "If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me." Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, "If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?"

 

[Klaus]

Just to add a third holy relic to the topic (although this one comes from a novel, it was too cool to pass up):



The Armageddon Box - Not meant to be opened, it is a source of tremendous power. Magically-speaking, it's got more juice than 100 nuclear power plants. The reason is clear when you open the box and it contains...

Spoiler

a crown of thorns

.

Search for the novel in google or amazon. It's rather cool.