Looking for info on GURPS. Unbalanced?

[Henry]

I always liked the idea of GURPS as a multi-genre system first and foremost. I often think than Ryan Dancey got the d20 concept from Steve Jackson games, and turned Steve's business model on its ear (GURPS makes more money from the supplements than it does from the core rules, in my experience). I also enjoy the more realistic feel of a character under the GURPS system.

There was always one thing that bugged me, though. You could create a 100-point buy character, assign all 100 points to one stat (either DEX or INT) to get a 17 score, and become a default skill god. alternately, you could do the same, take about 45 points worth of various quirks and skills (such as code of honor, compulsive liar, enemy organization on a low frequency of appearance), then you could assign 1/2 point to 2 points in about 60 to 90 different skills, and pretty much succeed on a 15 or better in most cases.

The secret to GURPS min-maxing was to pump up the base score, not the skills. It was always far too expensive to pump up the base skills above your ability score, so the easiest thing was to save up your character points to do the one thing that always mattered - pumping up your default score.

 

[sword-dancer]

I think that if I ever ran a GURPS game, I'd just hand out more points at character creation and limit the characters to some quirks and maybe one major (10 points or more) flaw each, but with good character background justification...

In one group I've played with, the DM wasn't careful about weaknesses at all, and everyone just loaded up on mental ones - most of the party was psychotic...

Never thought on disad like Code of Honor, Sense of Duty, Duty Secret, Vow/Oath, Pacifism, Dependant, Poor, Can not lie/Honest,
Comulsive Behaviour,

Example Given

CoH Pirate 5 CP
CoH Gentleman 10 CP
CoH Chivalric 15 CP

 

[Conaill]

In my experience, I've found GURPS to be better balanced than D&D.

Here's some balancing mechanisms:

- Stats are bought using a progressively more expensive point scale. That's what inspired D&D 3e's point buy system. As Henry pointed out, yes you CAN put all your points into a single stat, but your character will probably die a very swift death because it will suck at everything else!

- Stats cost double after character creation. (Dunno if that was a standard rule, but it's how we playing in our group). That means that you can increase stats during play, but it's bloody expensive, and you typically save up for it for a loooong time.

- Skills are also progressively more expensive, but there is no fixed upper bound. This works better IMHO than D&D, where skills can go up indefinitely but are linked to class level.

 

[JPL]

I will probably never play GURPS.

And I spent two hours last night comparing GURPS Cliffhangers and GURPS Cabal and planning a wonderous globe-hopping monster-fighting occult conspiracy Dr. Strange-meets-Indiana Jones campaign [which I would run with d20 Modern].

I know that SJGames will never let it happen...but if I dig these books so much as-is, just imagine if all the crunchy stuff were d20...

 

[WizarDru]

I know that SJGames will never let it happen...but if I dig these books so much as-is, just imagine if all the crunchy stuff were d20...

But the crunchy stuff is usually only some new skills and new advantages/disadvantages. That, and some new equipment listings. You don't need any of that for what you're doing, and a translation would be clumsy and redundant.

Heck, what you want is the (IMHO) excellent d20 minigame from Polyhedron a few months ago for pulp-fiction action. That, or use d20 modern itself. Why reinvent the wheel when you don't have to?

 

[mmu1]

Never thought on disad like Code of Honor, Sense of Duty, Duty Secret, Vow/Oath, Pacifism, Dependant, Poor, Can not lie/Honest,
Comulsive Behaviour,

Example Given

CoH Pirate 5 CP
CoH Gentleman 10 CP
CoH Chivalric 15 CP

Well, this happened to be a Cyberpunk game....

There definitely are some GURPS flaws that make for perfectly playable characters, especially social ones relating to codes of behavior and honor, but there aren't nearly enough of them, and they're not suitable for a lot of characters.

Flaws are not one of GURPS' better aspects, they're often exaggerated and too many of them make characters into either cripples or psychotics. Too often, they also end up taking the control over the character out of the player's hands, which I never liked in an RPG. I'd rather role-playing and game mechanics were kept separate.

 

[mmu1]

40 Points disads, 5 Point Quirks.
I had no Problem to made a capable Thief who could defend himself, or an Navy Officer(British Navy in the Independenc war) with 100 Points in less than an hour with .
An Scholar/Ingenieur in a renaissance/Medieval World with acceptable Weapon skill(sword/shield) and in this case I throw CP away for special Equipment(Mostly Books, a donkey and Ingenieurs Tools) because I had them over.

Great... And I still can't make "myself". I'm too big (which means that, going by GURPS Strength/Height/Weight table I'd have to dump 60 points on Strength)... Aside from fantasy settings, ST is way too much of a dump stat in GURPS. It really ought to be priced differently depending on the technology level.

Sorry all Dis/advantages you need are in the Basic Book, the Setting Book and the Magic/Psionic Books, or in the Comdium I.

Just between the basic book and Compendium I, you probably have more advantages/flaws than there are feats in most of the major D&D settings put together.

Absent Mindedness is II_RC a disadvantage.

You'd need a LOT of flaws to make someone with 15 or 16 INT actually absent-minded. I didn't say impossible, I said difficult. What if there are other flaws you'd rather take?

 

[JPL]

But the crunchy stuff is usually only some new skills and new advantages/disadvantages. That, and some new equipment listings. You don't need any of that for what you're doing, and a translation would be clumsy and redundant.

Heck, what you want is the (IMHO) excellent d20 minigame from Polyhedron a few months ago for pulp-fiction action. That, or use d20 modern itself. Why reinvent the wheel when you don't have to?

What I'd like is a line of products which has all of the fluff exactly as GURPS would do it, and all of the crunch d20 style.

Take GURPS Steampunk, for example. You could have some stats for H.G. Well's Martians, some new advanced classes [Great White Hunter, Master Detective], new monsters [the Morlocks, the moreaus], maybe a variant spell system [Victorian ritual magic].

Or GURPS Cliffhangers. Even easier to do the crunch here --- just port most of the Pulp Heroes crunch in, changing the classes to advanced classes.

Or let's take GURPS Cabal. What we'd need here is a variant magic system where spellcasters can factor in all sorts of different hoo-hah to make their spells stick. Plus talk about the Cabal [a secret conspiracy of monsters and mages] in d20 terms --- are there mind flayers? Liches? How does the cosmology work in D&D / Manual of the Planes terms?

Many of these different settings and genres have been covered by d20 products, true...but I wish there was a steady stream of reliable and useful and inexpensive sourcebooks like GURPS.

 

[Henry]

- Stats are bought using a progressively more expensive point scale. That's what inspired D&D 3e's point buy system. As Henry pointed out, yes you CAN put all your points into a single stat, but your character will probably die a very swift death because it will suck at everything else!

I think you missed my problem with it, though. A character with

Strength 10
Dexterity 17
Intelligence 10
Health 10

and about 40 points of disadvantages, spending those 40 points, about 1 point each skill, in DEX skills, will not suck, especially in any dex related skills. He will perform anything from gunfighting to melee combat with quite a bit of facility, will have a rather strong dodge score, and will last in combat about as long as a standard character with a health of 12 or 13, slightly less so.

So my main point is that even if the ability improvement gain costs double, saving up the points to do so is actually worth more in the long run, because you are increasing every skill you have when you do so. So if it costs, say, 20 points extra to go from a 17 DEX to an 18, it's worth it to save up those 40 points to do so, because you've increased about 40 skills with the same cost as you would have increased 5 or 6, or 1 or 2 to levels above your ability score.

If I am not seeing the balance there, please feel free to correct me, but it's the one thing that leaped out at half a dozen of my players the first time they played it, and we had a group comprised of 50% Einsteins with IQ 17, and 50% Billy the Kid's with DEX 17, and they tackled any challenge that came their way pretty easily.

 

[Conaill]

If I am not seeing the balance there, please feel free to correct me, but it's the one thing that leaped out at half a dozen of my players the first time they played it, and we had a group comprised of 50% Einsteins with IQ 17, and 50% Billy the Kid's with DEX 17, and they tackled any challenge that came their way pretty easily.

And I could probably design a character that would outshine them significantly in specific areas. For example, it sounds like you were missing a good melee fighter (high ST and HT). With DR rules, you're often better off hitting hard than hitting often (especially against armored opponents), and a fighter can focus on buying up a few combat skill instead of pumping his DX to a 17 or 18.

In my experience, I've found that for a long-term character you typically DO want to start with great stats and low skills. I.e. you start out as a hero with great potential but no experience. I think that is just as it should be! Then during play you will tend to increase your most essential skills and very occasionally up a stat.

However, for a short campaign, or a one-shot, it is usually much more efficient to pick reasonable stats and a buttload of skill points. I don't think I've ever seen a character with a stat higher than 16 for such a campaign (from experienced players anyway...) Essentially, you start out as an experienced hero, highly skilled at what he does. Again, I feel that's exactly the way it should be for a one-shot scenario.