Looking Forward to "Stormwrack"

[Aeolius]

But now I have to take the bait. How the heck does water qualify as having "the largest appeal to the masses"? A party trekking through desert or tundra has a certain heroic appeal to it. I can paint a cool picture of that in my mind. But a party trekking across an ocean floor with schools of fish swimming around them and checking their watches every few minutes to see if it's time to take another swig of their water-breathing potions? That just strikes me as an absurd visual. I don't see that as having the greatest mass appeal. Water is an obstacle that separates point A from point B. Sure, your ship can attacked by krakkens and pirates in transit, but that alone doesn't merit an entire book IMO.

If I take the bait, does that make you a troll..err...scrag..gotta think aquatic Mind you, I run an undersea campaign, so my opinion may be a tad biased.

The sea represents a mystery, a vast unknown in which to explore and adventure. While its lure may not appeal to everyone, I for one have always been fascinated by the citizens of the ocean.

Take a trip to your local public aquarium or pet store featuring a selection of saltwater tanks. Watch the inhabitants in each aquarium interact with each other. Carefully map the contours of the sponge-encrusted liverock. The variety of life in a simple reef tank is astounding.

Tune into the Discovery Channel when they are showing the "Blue Planet" series or explore the various undersea-themed sections on their website. Look over a few websites that sell saltwater fish, to sample a fraction of the variety seen in the wild.

Start thinking of the ocean floor as more than just dirt. Envision sea grasslands, brambles of living sea stars, or a jungle of sargassum seaweed. Or perhaps a sea urchin barren or dead coral desert would be more to your liking. Then there are jungles of kelp and tangles of mangrove roots in the shallows. Dive a bit deeper to explore hydrothermal vents and cold seeps, undersea lakes of highly salted waters. Add to that the inevitable sunken treasure fleet or ruins of an ancient city thrust to the ocean floor amidst a volcanic eruption.

Imagine how the environment differs, beneath the surface of the sea. Visibility is a constant concern. Enemies can approach from above and below. Communication, combat, and even something as simple as swallowing a potion or scribing a page in a spellbook must be reconsidered.

Some links, to get you started:

An online reseller of tropical fish:
http://www.liveaquaria.com/
Discovery Channel's "Blue Planet" pages:
http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/blueplanet/blueplanet.html

 

[Felon]

*Blink, blink* Consider how many sea going and pirate supplements are out there. The sea has a siren call all its own, readily available mental images, and a history of high adventure, from pirates to sunken treasure, from Nelson and Hornblower to Tugboat Annie. Pirates of the Carribean to the Abyss. 20.000 Leagues Under the Sea to Noah.

Name-dropping is all very good and nice, but let's try to get substantive.

Stormwrack is an environment book first and foremost, not a book about vessels. In those stories you mention, how much of that action involves stepping off the ship into the "environment" that will be covered in the book? How many adventures did Horatio Hornblower actual have in the ocean itself, as opposed to on a ship floating on the ocean--essentially, a refuge from the environment.

I suppose that you could compare wilderness adventures to travelling down I95 - it would make about as much sense in regards to the 'Sea is an obstacle from Point A to Point B'.

That's a sloppy equivocation. As I've already pointed out, characters actually explore and have adventures in the woods. How many adventures do you plan to have where characters all must have water-breathing and freedom of action spells going at all times? D&D is a game of fighters wearing 100 pounds of plate armor and wizards toting spellbooks wherever they go. These aren't conventions that mix well with water.

The sea represents a mystery, a vast unknown in which to explore and adventure. While its lure may not appeal to everyone, I for one have always been fascinated by the citizens of the ocean.

To each their own, but I was specifically asking how it could be asserted that a book on water-based adventures could be deemed as having the widest appeal.

Imagine how the environment differs, beneath the surface of the sea. Visibility is a constant concern. Enemies can approach from above and below. Communication, combat, and even something as simple as swallowing a potion or scribing a page in a spellbook must be reconsidered.

Exactly, the conventions of D&D and the necessities of underwater adventuring don't mesh well. Large sections of the game would need re-inventing in order to make sense, and the gain just isn't there for most DM's.

 

[Aeolius]

To each their own, but I was specifically asking how it could be asserted that a book on water-based adventures could be deemed as having the widest appeal.

I can't speak for everyone, but Frostburn and Sandstorm are "just" environmental books (have 'em both, btw). Cold dungeons or sandy dungeons...boo-ya! Stormwrack represents a departure from the same ol' same ol'.

Exactly, the conventions of D&D and the necessities of underwater adventuring don't mesh well. Large sections of the game would need re-inventing in order to make sense, and the gain just isn't there for most DM's.

That's half the fun of DMing...making stuff up!

Granted, if you're looking for a typical dungeon crawl, then keep away from the environmental series. Need a potion or spellbook? There are alternates in Complete Arcane which work underwater. Want to slay a dragon? Those are available as well; sea drake, dragon turtle, etc.

But, as you said... to each their own.

 

[Pure Puppet]

Oh, lord. This is just what I freakin' needed.

Just when I try to start saving my paychecks, this comes along.

DAMMIT, WOTC! STOP TEMPTING ME WITH THE SIREN CALL OF UNDERWATER ENVIROMENTS!

On the bright side, August fifth is pretty far away, so I can probably have most of the money saved up.

...Maybe.

Dammit, I'm gonna be poor again.

 

[thalmin]

Stormwrack is an environment book first and foremost, not a book about vessels. In those stories you mention, how much of that action involves stepping off the ship into the "environment" that will be covered in the book? How many adventures did Horatio Hornblower actual have in the ocean itself, as opposed to on a ship floating on the ocean--essentially, a refuge from the environment.

But the book is also about vessels. And the environment on, not just under, the water. Lakes and rivers are also covered (at least according to the WotC preview.) So the book should be useful whether your game takes you over, across, into, or under the water.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Name-dropping is all very good and nice, but let's try to get substantive.

Stormwrack is an environment book first and foremost, not a book about vessels. In those stories you mention, how much of that action involves stepping off the ship into the "environment" that will be covered in the book? How many adventures did Horatio Hornblower actual have in the ocean itself, as opposed to on a ship floating on the ocean--essentially, a refuge from the environment.

Have you ever read Hornblower? The answer is about a quarter of the stories deal with the sea as an antagonist. Have you read 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea? Exploration of the mysteries of the deeps is a very large theme in the book. The reason I dropped the names is that I expected people to be familiar with them, thus not needing to type a lengthy description of what the books make obvious. The surface of the sea is every much a part of the 'environment' of the ocean as its depths, and I suspect that it is also what will garner the most attention in Stormwrack, along with the shore.

That's a sloppy equivocation. As I've already pointed out, characters actually explore and have adventures in the woods. How many adventures do you plan to have where characters all must have water-breathing and freedom of action spells going at all times? D&D is a game of fighters wearing 100 pounds of plate armor and wizards toting spellbooks wherever they go. These aren't conventions that mix well with water.

Gee, because explorers never go exploring on the ocean, ever. (<--sarcasm) D&D is a game of many things, plate armor is only a portion of it. D&D has a lot of fighter type classes that run from ranger to swashbuckler to barbarian that can survive just fine without the 100 pounds of armor (By the way except for some jousting plate that number is false, try 25-50 pounds, and people could swim in it (badly).) It is called swashbuckling. And there are these nifty things called 'boats'. There are also magic items that allow the depths to be explored.It sounds like your vision of the game is a trifle... limited. A sloppy generalization.

To each their own, but I was specifically asking how it could be asserted that a book on water-based adventures could be deemed as having the widest appeal.

Again, this is why there are so very few seagoing supplements for the game (<--sarcasm).

Seagoing supplements are among the most popular items from third party publishers, there are indeed a lot of people who find the sea more interesting than the desert. And as I pointed out I suspect that more than 50% of Stormwrack will be dealing with the surface and the shore, not the depths.

Exactly, the conventions of D&D and the necessities of underwater adventuring don't mesh well. Large sections of the game would need re-inventing in order to make sense, and the gain just isn't there for most DM's.

Not reinventing, or even reenvisioning. Merely another way of looking at the game.

The Auld Grump

 

[MavrickWeirdo]

One of Keith Baker's Dragonshard Articles The Lhazaar Principalities, Part One lists some Nauticle Feats, which are a preview from Stormwrack.

 

[The Shaman]

The environment is an antagonist, one of the most challenging in fact, in all of my games regardless of genre, so this series of books is pretty much a guaranteed sell for me - there's not much from WotC about which that can be said.

Frostburn was awesome, Sandstorm was acceptable, and I'm looking forward to Stormwrack.

 

[Aeolius]

...I suspect that more than 50% of Stormwrack will be dealing with the surface and the shore, not the depths.

I'd agree with that assumption, which of course leaves room for another WotC supplement dealing solely with undersea exploration.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I'd agree with that assumption, which of course leaves room for another WotC supplement dealing solely with undersea exploration.

Most likely titled something like 'Races of the Deeps' or some such. (I still have not purchased any of the Races books by WotC.)

The Auld Grump