Looking to revamp the skill system!

[A'koss]

For a while now I've building a lower-magic variant of D&D for our home campaign and I'm looking for some ideas to revamp the skill system.

Now I'm sure that there must be at least some people here who've taken a stab at working out a better balanced, easier to generate NPC system or at least ideas along those lines.

Fundamentally better high level play is one of the goals of my variant so one of the most important considerations is that is must work better at these levels, the disparities between the classes must be lessened between equivalent level characters.

I've toyed with the idea of just lowering the overall numbers. I've toyed with changing the whole system to and using automatic ranks. I've toyed with a non-number system (None, Low, Average, Good, Excellent, Superhuman) and probably more that escape me right now... Magic will have a significantly reduced (but not eliminated) impact with the new rules so that will help as well.

But I can't help but think that maybe there is just a better way that I'm missing...

Thoughts?

Cheers,

A'koss.

 

[Nifft]

My Untested Thoughts (based on White Wolf's Exalted/WoD system): Increasing costs for higher ranks.

For the first 4 ranks, you pay only one skill point per rank.
For the 2nd set of ranks (5-8), you pay two skill points per rank.
For the 3rd set of ranks (9-12), you pay three skill points per rank, and so on... 13-16: 4 sp/rank, 17-20: 5 sp/rank.

Cross-class skills cost +1 skill point per rank.

-- N

 

[A'koss]

Nifft... I think you're onto something there!

I started crunching the numbers and so far... I like what I'm seeing. It'll be a bitch to work out ranks for high level PCs/Monsters without a spreadsheet but I think this train of thought is definitely worth exploring.

Cheers!

A'koss.

 

[Glak]

Get rid of the x4 thing at first level. It just gives those who are good at the skill a 3 point jump. What I do is give everyone half max hp per level, x1 skill points, no +2 bump on saves. Then I give them a level of their racial paragon to compensate. Well, plus I changed the whole system but that isn't the point.

 

[A'koss]

Hi Glak, I've actually changed the skill point acquisition as well - it's a static progression now. For example, Rogues gain 30 + 10 / level after 1st. I've taken out Intelligence as the foundation of skills, although it still modifies all the appropriate ones.

Well, plus I changed the whole system but that isn't the point.

Heh... we'll have to compare notes sometime. The racial paragon level is an interesting idea.

A'koss.

 

[Nifft]

I started crunching the numbers and so far... I like what I'm seeing. It'll be a bitch to work out ranks for high level PCs/Monsters without a spreadsheet but I think this train of thought is definitely worth exploring.

Thanks!

I did some work with it, and it's not that much worse than the ability point buy system -- you start to remember certain "milestones" which allow you to quickly assign most skill points, then you manually figure out where you can allocate the remainder.

For example:
Rank 5 = 6 sp. Key for synergy bonuses.
Rank 8 = 12 sp. Key for many PrCs.
Rank 10 = 18 sp. Key for other PrCs.
Rank 15 = 36 sp.

Or, you could make a chart for "state change" ranks:
Rank 4 = 4 sp, +2 thereafter.
Rank 8 = 12 sp, +3 thereafter.
Rank 12 = 24 sp, +4 thereafter.
Rank 16 = 40 sp, +5 thereafter.
Rank 20 = 60 sp, +6 thereafter.
Rank 24 = 84 sp, +7 thereafter.

(Also note that, to get these numbers, you essentially add up each of the "state change" ranks -- it costs 4 sp to get from 0->4 ranks, and 8 to get from 4->8, so to get to 8, you add 4 + 8 = 12. Likewise for 12 ranks -- add 4 + 8 + 12 = 24. There are tricks! )

For cross-class:
Rank 4 = 8 sp, +3 next.
Rank 8 = 20 sp, +4 next.
Rank 12 = 36 sp, +5 next.
Rank 16 = 56 sp, +6 next.
Rank 20 = 80 sp, +7 next.

-- N

 

[Nifft]

Ooo, I forgot to post the core motivations behind the proposed system:

1) lower DCs overall at high levels;
2) make specialization expensive but rewarding;
3) make feats like Skill Focus and Alertness actually increase in relative value for high-level PCs.

The lower overall DCs mean that even at high level, the range between "always-succeed" and "always-fail" is smaller, so PCs are more likely to both struggle and to have a chance to succeed.

-- N

 

[A'koss]

Thanks for the various rank breakdowns Nifft, that was acutally quite helpful. I think we're going to give it a shot and see how it pans out in play.

Good one!

A'koss.

 

[maddman75]

Two changes could greatly simplify the skill system.

1) Seperate the skill from the individual stat. When the DM needs a roll, he asks for a skill plus an attribute depending on what you are trying to do.
2) Collapse the skill list. Especially with number one, do we *really* need Spot, Search, and Listen when one single "notice" skill would work just as well? Other good candidates include Hide + Move Silently = Stealth, Balance + Tumble + Jump + Swim = Acrobatics, Bluff + Intimidate = Diplomacy.

This would reduce the amount of number crunching, eliminate Synergy bonuses entirely, and make the system more flexible overall. The hard part would be recalculating how many skill points each class should get.

 

[Nifft]

Maddman75: Sorry to hijack your point, but it seems that with my "diminishing returns" system, one could also decrease the number of skills without unbalancing the system too much.

Spot / Listen -> Notice
Hide / Move Silently -> Sneak

Diplomacy / Gather Info -> Diplomacy
Bluff / Intimidate -> Bluff

... and probably some others. Anyway, I totally agree that the number and type of skills should be tailored to the individual campaign.

-- N