lorraine williams (includes opinions from Gygax et al)

[Scurvy_Platypus]

but don't you think that all the aggro attatched to her figure is a bit too much?

Honestly?

There's a certain level of "group-think" that goes on. Nothing special. It happens to any group.

My wife for example was just talking about a graduate student in her field that's getting hired for some 6 figure salary. She does environmental science stuff at Princeton University.

The advisor (who's also her boss) went on this long half-rant basically implying that the student "owed" him for the time he's spent guiding and advising the student on his research, and how the student is throwing it all away. Almost everyone else in her group doesn't have nice things to say either, and it's all because he's joining some think-tank. And not a "conservative" one, or one that's opposed to environmental sciences. My wife thinks in this case that it's just a matter of people having believed that they've put in so much time and effort and make so little money, it's got to be worth _something_. Seeing someone walk out of the field like that and into a position earning 3 times more they they do, and he's fresh out of grad school, it's not hard to think that people might be a bit bitter about the last 10 years of their career.

Lorraine Williams, Kevin Siembieda, John Wick, Ron Edwards... they're easy punching bags. Lots of people seem to need a reason to dislike and rant about others.

Are they blameless? Nah.

Then again, I've read some of Gygax's editorials in early Dragon and can't say I really like a lot of what he had to say either. He worked pretty actively against his share of stuff back in the day. He certainly was no kindly Santa Claus like people seem to think sometimes.

Heck, looking at movies... Keanu Reeves is a popular punching bag.

But you know what? I find an awful lot of the criticism heaped on Keanu applies to Anthony Hopkins and Christopher Walken. But Hopkins and Walken get a pass. It's popular to bag on Keanu.

However people want to dress it up, it boils down to "some people are looking for a reason to hate someone else."

I've got better things to do with my time. People are people and some are nicer than others. Nobody is completely irredeemable, and nobody is above criticism.

If people object to the way that someone does business, you spend your money elsewhere and make sure the people know why the money is going where it is. Otherwise it's a bunch of pointless chest thumping and raising your blood pressure for no good reason. I refused to buy 2E stuff in part because I objected to TSR's business practices. I object to White Wolf's support of a game that I consider to be objectionable, and therefore refuse to give them or their subsidiaries (like Sword & Sorcery Studio) any of my money.

Simple stuff really, and doesn't require any of the drama that forums seem to love.

 

[jdrakeh]

There is significantly more to it than that.

First, think of your favorite RPG. You have purchased the core rules, and a few expansions, and you are looking forward to two major setting releases (the city of Ascalon and the City of Ys). Additionally, you just paid for a subscription to the new supplemental 'zine, and you are waiting for your first issue. You are working on a campaign, and your players have designed characters.

Then you find out your game is dead because the T$R has clubbed the creators into submission with relentless lawsuits and legal fees they can't hope to pay.

Even though the grounds for the suit (that it is a derivative of D&D) is pure garbage, and that fact is obvious to anyone with a brain.

And the sole purpose of the lawsuit was to crush Mythus. The game didn't fail against the competition. It didn't fail because it was managed badly. It was crushed by the biggest and oldest player in the industry, purely to destroy it and end its existence.

And that cash you shelled out for that subscription: kiss it goodbye and eat the loss, fool. That was Sean "Veggie boy" Reynolds answer, if couched in gentler diction.

When T$R became bankrupt only a few years later, it was very difficult to avoid feeling unadulterated and unrepentant schadenfreude.

As for the internet policy, there is something to it a lot of people may have missed. T$R was claimed they owned YOUR work. Period. You had no rights whatsoever to it (they claimed). They also employed their armies of lawyers to shut down fansites as part of their effort to exert total domination of thier IP.

So lets be clear. This board (ENworld) would not exist under TBL's T$R. You would be posting to only the WotC boards, and subject to the decrees of their moderators, and even the idea of the OGL or d20 license would have been unthinkable.

T$R under Lorraine Williams really was the Evil Empire of the RPG world, and she was the Emperor.

Hate fantasies...?
Only someone who didn't experience the effects of T$R's actions could believe that.
I wish thats all it was.

See, for me, none of this stuff applies. I simply didn't like her as a businesswoman due to her poor management decisions. I guess I'm grounded enough that I don't need to carry around a personal grudge for decades on end. I think that you're mistaken when you say that the issue is this intensely personal for all gamers, everywhere. I think most gamers could care less about events that took place more than a decade ago.

Clearly, your own resentment of Williams is a very personal thing for you but I know very few gamers who actually share your sentiments. Not all other gamers hate Williams or even care about what she did or didn't do anymore. That was a long time ago and many of the hypothetical situations that you mention -- such as the non-existence of ENworld -- never actually occurred (and, hence, are entirely moot points).

Many gamers have moved on.

 

[Sanguinemetaldawn]

See, for me, none of this stuff applies. I simply didn't like her as a businesswoman due to her poor management decisions. I guess I'm grounded enough that I don't need to carry around a personal grudge for decades on end.

Oh, and I guess I do?
Gimme a break.

I rarely think about it, but neither have I forgotten. I'd like to see one hate-rant I have posted on this board (or any other) in the last 5 or 10 years on Lorraine Williams. What I just wrote above is by far the most I have ever written on the topic, and if that is a hatred filled rant to you, well, you haven't been on the net very long.

T$R during Lorraine Williams' time was a spectacular extreme image of what a company could be, and it commited some very real abuses. The decision to get rid of TSR as a brand by WotC was made as a calculated decision to rid itself of the legacy of Williams actions.

This makes Williams' TSR an excellent example for purposes of discussion, and a critical part of the history of this hobby. And said example and history is largely negative in character. Thus, you can look forward to citations of Lorraine Williams' TSR when discussing the history of D&D...pretty much forever.

Clearly, your own resentment of Williams is a very personal thing for you but I know very few gamers who actually share your sentiments.
...<snip>...
Many gamers have moved on.

Well, I'll report to counseling immediately, and perhaps I can achieve the nirvana of your enlightenment.

Pathetic.

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

I wonder what it would take to persuade Stephen Sondheim to do a musical about Lorraine Williams (Devil Manager of TSR)… You get some big choreographed numbers with designers, duets by people playing Hickman and Weis, arias by Ed Greenwood….

 

[Hammerhead]

Yeah, do you think we could call it "TSR" instead of so cleverly substituting a dollar sign for the S?

 

[Arnwyn]

Yeah, do you think we could call it "TSR" instead of so cleverly substituting a dollar sign for the S?

I suppose you can, but I don't think others are obligated to do so. ENWorld isn't part of TSR's/WotC's listserv groups.

 

[jaerdaph]

I loved her sister on Laverne and Shirley.

 

[jdrakeh]

Oh, and I guess I do?

Well, you've just written two huge posts about how the evil Lorraine Williams deliberately and intentionally crushed your childhood, trounced your heroes, and sued other companies for spite (or sport) -- complete with the ubiquitous "T$R" references and a bevy of other ad-hominems and hyperbole. I could be wrong, but that sounds very resentful.

The language of forgiving peace, it ain't.

I'm merely saying that not everybody feels that way, despite claims to the contrary. Your feelings of hate and intense animosity toward Williams are not shared by all D&D fans. Again, I don't hate Williams. Bully for you if you do but your blanket statements about all gamers sharing your hatred are insulting. And, yes, absolutely pathetic.

 

[Delta]

Your feelings of hate and intense animosity toward Williams are not shared by all D&D fans...

Harsh criticism is not the same thing as "hate and animosity". It's pretty unfair to impugn saguine's post as merely a "personal grudge". At no point did he say that he "hated" her (in fact, he said the opposite). Assigning that kind of emotional rhetoric to him just serves to avoid the points of detail that he's bringing up.

I'm not a mod, but should both probably cool it a bit at this point.

 

[Piratecat]

I guess I'm grounded enough that I don't need to carry around a personal grudge for decades on end. I think that you're mistaken when you say that the issue is this intensely personal for all gamers, everywhere. I think most gamers could care less about events that took place more than a decade ago.

Clearly, your own resentment of Williams is a very personal thing for you but I know very few gamers who actually share your sentiments.

James, out of the thread, please. I'm pretty sure you could have expressed your point without telling another member how he feels, and without being rude and condescending in the process.

Sanguine, when something like this happens, don't call another person pathetic; please report the post instead. Folks squabbling isn't how I want to spend my New Years!