"Lorraine Williams Scenario" Forked Thread: from Death of the LGS

[Fifth Element]

As far as the distribution model goes (like spreading the former core essentials over several core PHBs/MMs and years), it is a pure business decision, something I don't think a gamer would do this way.

Not sure if I agree with your assertion, since the basic release model of D&D has been the same for some time (core books + splats, regardless of what you might consider to be "core essentials", since that changes with each edition).

But even if it's true, I don't see it as a bad thing. Pure business decisions (if that's what this is) should generally be made by those who understand business. It's a simple fact of business: businesses of a certain size require business managers, not just "talent". If you let RPG designers make large-scale business decisions, you get bad results. Just as if you let business managers design the game itself.

 

[Korgoth]

Forked from: Death of the LGS



I see no evidence whatsoever to support this statement, other than the fact that you might not like 4e. Hasbro expcets WotC to make a profit, but lets them decide how. Collectible games provide most of the regular profit for WotC (AFAIK) and aside from a little restructuring to better monetize the game, I don't see any evidence of non-gamer influence.

My interpretation, which is just an interpretation since my invisible spy robots are currently on the fritz thus limiting my access to the Hasbro halls of power, is that a number of the design decisions in 4E are probably due to imperatives from the Hasbro bosses rather than being direct design decisions by the underlings (WOTC). I hope it's evident that in saying this I'm actually being nice to WOTC.

Consider the worst offender (IMO, of course): the fact that numerous core elements and concepts were deliberately withheld until later 'core' books. I'm not just talking frost giants and iron golems. I'm also talking about core concepts like necromancy (esp. given that Orcus is the main villain in the first release) and conjuration. Of course you'll be able to buy them later... but 4E seems to deliberately include a lot less than past core editions. And then there's the MMO influence. Yeah, roll your eyes if you want to, but when you're spamming your Controller powers at Fangtooth Goblins, Fangtooth Slingers and Fangtooth Elites you might feel a tingle of conscience when you're reminded that I'm right. I'm hypothesizing that the "Get the MMO crowd" design directive came down from Hasbro rather than being a WOTC idea... just a hypothesis. And then there's the question of rebranding.

You can see the rebranding, right? "It's not about gnomes dressed like medieval peasants and their stupid familiars, it's about badazz goth devil chicks in hurtmewear shooting death rays at people." Tieflings, dragonborn, feywild, shadowfell, GSL clauses, etc.: it all has to do with forging a unique brand identity. That's my guess, anyway.

Design decisions driven by business decisions, rather than the other way around. That's the "Lorraine Williams Scenario". That's all I'm saying.

In the original thread, gamersgambit suggested that somehow by supporting your FLGS gamers would be able to control/influence the character of D&D 5E and 6E. My pointing out the LWS is an attempted refutation of his proposal.

 

[Turjan]

Not sure if I agree with your assertion, since the basic release model of D&D has been the same for some time (core books + splats, regardless of what you might consider to be "core essentials", since that changes with each edition).

Well, according to the makers of 4e, you will see the next part of the core some time next year. It's their own definition that I follow here, so it doesn't depend on my own or yours.

But even if it's true, I don't see it as a bad thing. Pure business decisions (if that's what this is) should generally be made by those who understand business. It's a simple fact of business: businesses of a certain size require business managers, not just "talent". If you let RPG designers make large-scale business decisions, you get bad results. Just as if you let business managers design the game itself.

I didn't make any value statement in my last post. I agree with you that businesses that are led with pure gamer sensibilities tend to go bankrupt if this isn't paired with some business sense. I can understand why WotC does things like they do them from a business perspective. It's just that I personally have an immense dislike for MtG-like business models that churn out a new set of slightly changed mechanics plus new elements every year. But that's just me, and MtG was a success, so I wish them luck with this approach. I don't think they depend on me to follow them where they go.

 

[Fifth Element]

Well, according to the makers of 4e, you will see the next part of the core some time next year. It's their own definition that I follow here, so it doesn't depend on my own or yours.

I was referring to your assertion that this was a purely business decision, one that a gamer would not have made. Clearly someone made the decision, but we don't know who or for what reason.

 

[Turjan]

I was referring to your assertion that this was a purely business decision, one that a gamer would not have made. Clearly someone made the decision, but we don't know who or for what reason.

Well, a pure gamer decision would be to release everything at once. The big dream come true. That doesn't make business sense, but that's what I would see as gamer decision.

I don't see any gaming-related decision that would lead to withholding part of the core for later years.

 

[Fifth Element]

Well, a pure gamer decision would be to release everything at once. The big dream come true. That doesn't make business sense, but that's what I would see as gamer decision.

I don't see any gaming-related decision that would lead to withholding part of the core for later years.

Again, I think that depends on your definition of "core". If the gamers in change of the game decided to change what is "core" (since they're in charge of the game), then they're not "withholding" core for later years. They decided warlocks are core, and barbarians aren't.

It's not like when 3rd edition was released the designers had no plans to release additional classes, etc in future books. Were they withholding things as well?

 

[Dire Bare]

Well, according to the makers of 4e, you will see the next part of the core some time next year. It's their own definition that I follow here, so it doesn't depend on my own or yours.

Not really. As always, the only things you truly need to play D&D (regardless of edition) is the three core books (PHB, DMG, MM), some dice, paper, and pencils. That's it, that's core.

WotC realized with 3rd Edition that any book with the words "Player's Handbook", "Dungeons Masters Guide", or "Monster Manual" in the title sold extremely well. So with 4th Edition, we get one of each every year. But these books remain optional and not necessary to run the game. You may personally consider gnomes, druids, and barbarians a part of the "core" experience, but I don't.

Overall, the gamers at WotC made a pretty savvy business move by releasing new PHBs, DMGs, and MMs each year. They're not necessary, but gamers will want them, and they will most likely sell quite well.

 

[Turjan]

Again, I think that depends on your definition of "core". If the gamers in change of the game decided to change what is "core" (since they're in charge of the game), then they're not "withholding" core for later years. They decided warlocks are core, and barbarians aren't.

This is getting tiresome. It's not my definition. It's WotC's definition. The next set of PHB/DMG/MM, due next year, with everything in there, is core. You will see part of the core next year. Another part the year after. And so on.

If you want to redefine the term "core", you are free to do so, but I'm sticking to the official definition here.

 

[Dire Bare]

Well, a pure gamer decision would be to release everything at once. The big dream come true. That doesn't make business sense, but that's what I would see as gamer decision.

I don't see any gaming-related decision that would lead to withholding part of the core for later years.

I WotC released the initial core books with everything . . .

They couldn't feasibly do it in print, we'd all be buying CD-ROMs or downloading ginormous files off the net. And afterwords, we'd have very little to buy.

You, of course, already pointed out this would be a poor business move. But that does not logically point to Hasbro or even WotC "suits" running the show. Gamers who have become designers, developers, and managers are capable of making wise business decisions on their own without any help from the "suits".

 

[Teflon Billy]

How many times have you walked into a LGS to find the employees playing video games?
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More than I can count. I always assume it's the owner-operator, as I can't imagine the business mind that would let his employees goof off like that.

Every job I've ever had, if you weren't busy, they'd find something for you to do (and in retail, that's usually cleaning/organizing)