"Lorraine Williams Scenario" Forked Thread: from Death of the LGS

[Turjan]

You, of course, already pointed out this would be a poor business move. But that does not logically point to Hasbro or even WotC "suits" running the show. Gamers who have become designers, developers, and managers are capable of making wise business decisions on their own without any help from the "suits".

I didn't advocate a move to release everything at once. I think I made it clear that I would see that as dumb. On the other hand, I don't see that releasing a set of three new core books every year is the only viable business model, either. We will see next year how much of this "essential core" talk is just talk and how much is actually fact. I will reserve my final verdict until then.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

Ah, you misunderstand "lorraine williams" That was design decisions based off BAD business decisions. Here its more like a compromise to keep the suits at bay. I can understand your concerns, but I actually like it this way.

((I intentionally forked the thread to point out to the board our new power.))

 

[Mark]

More than I can count. I always assume it's the owner-operator, as I can't imagine the business mind that would let his employees goof off like that.

Every job I've ever had, if you weren't busy, they'd find something for you to do (and in retail, that's usually cleaning/organizing)

Yup. Time enough to lean, time enough to clean, unless you own the mess.

 

[Turjan]

Ah, you misunderstand "lorraine williams" That was design decisions based off BAD business decisions.

Oh, I understand what "Lorraine Williams" meant. I don't think that the current business decisions are necessarily bad, either. They alienated me, but I don't take myself as so important that my personal decision not to buy 4e would influence WotC's bottom line in any way. This would only be the case if my decision were part of some landslide movement, but I honestly don't see that.

 

[Destil]

Consider the worst offender (IMO, of course): the fact that numerous core elements and concepts were deliberately withheld until later 'core' books. I'm not just talking frost giants and iron golems. I'm also talking about core concepts like necromancy (esp. given that Orcus is the main villain in the first release) and conjuration. Of course you'll be able to buy them later... but 4E seems to deliberately include a lot less than past core editions. And then there's the MMO influence. Yeah, roll your eyes if you want to, but when you're spamming your Controller powers at Fangtooth Goblins, Fangtooth Slingers and Fangtooth Elites you might feel a tingle of conscience when you're reminded that I'm right. I'm hypothesizing that the "Get the MMO crowd" design directive came down from Hasbro rather than being a WOTC idea... just a hypothesis. And then there's the question of rebranding.

While that's a nice conspiracy theory where, exactly, do you see those fitting into the 317 page Player's Handbook? Drop tieflings and dragonborn and you'd buy... 6 pages at most between the write-ups and feats. Drop any class but the warlord and you're cutting other 'core' material. Drop the warlord and 4E no longer has any unique new classes, it's just a reflection of previous editions.

The DM already has the information they need to run undead (monster manual, hand wave creation), for example.

There's just not the space for any of that.

Rebranding is a separate issue. They've been trying to do this since 3E from what I can tell. The ionics were largely an early attempt at branding with something from Magic (not that it worked for Magic either). If you look back at some of the early 3E information Wizards has always wanted to have a stronger 'image' for D&D, something they can own. Clearly the biggest problem point is that easily 95% of modern fantasy gaming can trace it's roots back to D&D...

 

[Teemu]

This is getting tiresome. It's not my definition. It's WotC's definition. The next set of PHB/DMG/MM, due next year, with everything in there, is core. You will see part of the core next year. Another part the year after. And so on.

If you want to redefine the term "core", you are free to do so, but I'm sticking to the official definition here.

WotC has "Core Game Product" as a type of book, others including "Accessory" and "Adventure". Then there's brand, some of which are "D&D Core" and "Forgotten Realms". PHB1 is a Core Game Product in the D&D Core brand, but PHB2 is an Accessory, yet branded a D&D Core book. So the 3 first books are Core Game Products, but the following PHBs, MMs, and DMGs are listed as Accessories. All are part of the D&D Core brand, yet so are books like Arcane Power and Draconomicon 1.

 

[Turjan]

Right you are. I could have sworn that the table looked different this morning, but now it says so.

That leaves me to say that the cut looks artificial to me, if you look at the distribution of the power sources. Anyway, as usual, the perception of how things are done are more important than how you actually do things as a company. And as far as the topic of this thread goes, I'm in the boat of those who think that the core concepts, classes and monsters are spread over several books and years. If many people think like that, it has the potential of being seen negatively by the customers. But I have no idea whether actually many people see this negatively or not.

Which means it's way too early to declare a "Lorraine Williams Scenario". This would imply that this spreading out of the material would cause many people not to buy the new edition. And I honestly don't think that that's the case.

 

[Corjay]

WOTC did exactly as I expected the gaming industry to do with its games. It was the next logical step to me. Simplify the games for a larger audience. It's good business. So what if a bunch of people moaning and crying about how they don't get to crunch numbers throughout their game don't play. In the end, the game is opened up to a larger, more fickle audience. Dumbed down to the elitists, but showing shear genius by thinking outside the box. Easier is better to the world at large. It's time for roleplaying to go mainstream. It's what gamers have been saying for over a decade. Now that it's happened, so many old gamers don't like it. But you know what, adapt or die. That's the situation the gaming industry is in. WOTC has downsized what, two or three times? They're doing a new approach that has never been done in the history of the game, because it is what the gaming industry needs. It is what WOTC needs. It was what I needed (and by extention, I mean all gamers who are tired of crunching numbers to play a game and getting few returns).

 

[Ashrum the Black]

Okay, am I totally happy with the direction that wotc has taken DnD? Nope. I miss my non-combat related skills, I miss poison that last more than a few seconds, and I miss being turned to stone forever. Do I plan to add these features back in, sure do. But even without these features in the game this is still DnD.

Last night we played our first session of 4E and I had a blast. Matter of fact the only person that didn't grok the new system is the one person that always seems to have issues with the system no matter what it is. My wife has told me twice that she really liked the new options.

I honestly don't care for the fact that some of the classes I want (druid I'm looking at you) aren't in the first players. But it does make business sense for them to play things out in small doses. It keeps interest high in the new products, and gets more sales from folks as them continue to buy so they can pick up the other classes.

DnD is a business and they have to make money. I'm not happy with all of their decisions, and I actually loathed a few of them. The canceling of Dungeon and Dragon primarily.

Has these business decisions cost wotc some good will in the gamer community, yes, and they'll need to work hard to earn that back. But I am a loooong way away from not buying a single DnD product for over five years, and having zero interest in anything they're producing. Which is were an awful lot of us where in the last fear years of TSR.

-Ashrum

 

[Shadeydm]

You can see the rebranding, right? "It's not about gnomes dressed like medieval peasants and their stupid familiars, it's about badazz goth devil chicks in hurtmewear shooting death rays at people." Tieflings, dragonborn, feywild, shadowfell, GSL clauses, etc.: it all has to do with forging a unique brand identity. That's my guess, anyway.

This part is priceless and made me shoot Sam Lite out of my nose, well done lol.