LotR demographics

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I'm unclear (it's been a long time since I browsed the Silmarillion) on how the Shire managed to remain and flourish while so much else fell and was not rebuilt. Any insights?

The Silmarillion won't help you here -- read Appendix A to ROTK (specifically the history of the North Kingdom). Basically, there are three things at work:

1. Geography: The Shire is in western Eriador, which is a ways from anything dangerous;

2. Timing: The hobbit people occupied the Shire as the North kingdom was falling, and the battles which destroyed the remnants of the North Kingdom also destroyed Angmar, which would have been the greatest threat to the Shire, and

3. Protectors: Gandalf and the Dunedain of the north actively protected the borders of the Shire from intruders (this is mentioned specifically in a dialogue between Halbarad and Aragorn, though I forget if it is in TTT or ROTK).

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Now Lothlorien is a bit more amazing. The only reason it hasn't been tromped goes something like this:
* Galadriel is the oldest elf in Middle-Earth (as far as I know), having actually *lived* in Valinor before joining with Feanor to charge back into Middle-Earth after the Simarils. Thus by general Tolkien logic, she is pretty powerful of spirit.
* She has the Ring of Adamant, which can't hurt.
* I wouldn't be surprised if some of the other elves in Lothlorien are as old as she.

John

It's pretty directly addressed in the books that only the coming of Sauron himself to Lorien would cause its defeat. Galadriel with her Elven Ring makes this so. After his defeat at the end of the Second Age, and his later being driven from Dol Guldur, Sauron didn't go much of anywhere directly.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

I would assume that this goes out the window if Sauron gains the One Ring. Once that happens Galadriel will either turn or have to remove her ring. Without the ring I see Lorien falling to a massive Orc army lead by the nine Nazgul.

Side question. Does the book ever mention what Sauron did with the dwarven rings he recovered? The book says all the rings were either lost in Dragon fire or gained by Sauron. I would assume that Sauron has at least 2 or 3 of them and has passed them to loyal assistants.

Also is it ever mentioned what ring forging skills Saruman has? One point in the book specifically says he is wearing one and I doubt it was just as jewelry.

It's pretty directly addressed in the books that only the coming of Sauron himself to Lorien would cause its defeat. Galadriel with her Elven Ring makes this so. After his defeat at the end of the Second Age, and his later being driven from Dol Guldur, Sauron didn't go much of anywhere directly.

 

[The Sigil]

Side question. Does the book ever mention what Sauron did with the dwarven rings he recovered? The book says all the rings were either lost in Dragon fire or gained by Sauron. I would assume that Sauron has at least 2 or 3 of them and has passed them to loyal assistants.

Not AFAIK. IIRC, 4 (maybe it was 5 - going from memory here) were destroyed by dragonfire. That leaves 3 (or 2).

IIRC, Thrain (Thorin's father) was the bearer of the last Dwarven Ring (IOW, all the others had been destroyed or captured by Sauron at this time) - which was taken from him when he was captured by the forces of Sauron and before Gandalf found him and received from him the map and key later given to Thorin at the beginning of the Hobbit. That leaves but 2 (or 1) unaccounted for.

Also, IIRC, it was said that the dwarves could not be turned by the rings into Ringwraiths, even though their rings were tainted by the One Ring (IIRC, the three elvish rings were not)... for whatever reason, dwarves seemed somewhat resistant to the "fading" effects of the rings.

Also, I remember from Unfinished Tales that once they had fallen slave to Sauron, the Ringwraiths were controlled by the 9 rings - which were then in possession of Sauron. This indicates to me that Sauron would have liked to have dwarven servants with the 2 unaccounted rings (or 1) but because of the nature of the dwarves, did not - Thrain was demonstrably not a servant of Sauron, though quite insane when Gandalf found him (not able to remember his own name, nor Thorin's name). Presumably these 3 (or 2) - including the one recovered from Thrain in this count - were used to help him boost his own personal power, rather than to increase his power through controlling thralls.

My 2 cents, though I'm sure someone who knows better than me will correct me.

--The Sigil

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I would assume that this goes out the window if Sauron gains the One Ring. Once that happens Galadriel will either turn or have to remove her ring. Without the ring I see Lorien falling to a massive Orc army lead by the nine Nazgul.

Side question. Does the book ever mention what Sauron did with the dwarven rings he recovered? The book says all the rings were either lost in Dragon fire or gained by Sauron. I would assume that Sauron has at least 2 or 3 of them and has passed them to loyal assistants.

Also is it ever mentioned what ring forging skills Saruman has? One point in the book specifically says he is wearing one and I doubt it was just as jewelry.

Sure, if sauron got back the One Ring, even the Elves with the Three couldn't withstand him. Obviously they couldn't use the Rings then, and it doesn't seem that they are individually powerful enough to take down Sauron without them. Galadriel is probably the closest to being that powerful:

"Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years." - Unfinished Tales, Part Two, chapter IV: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn

Which means she would probably be more powerful than even Gil-galad, especially with magic. But Gil-galad fell fighting Sauron, even though he and Elendil took out the big guy before he killed them, at least enough that Isildur could take the Ring. Based on this, I'd guess that Galadriel, Elrond, and Gandalf could take out Sauron even if he had the One, and they didn't have the Three to use. But getting to Sauron through all his minions to have a toe-to-toe fight is prbably impossible anyway. Even Galadriel would not last too long in a horde of orcs.

The Dwarven Rings that Sauron had, he apparently stored away somewhere, and used them to try to tempt the Dwarves to side with him - this is mentioned by Gloin (as I recall) in the Council of Elrond.

 

[Eosin the Red]

I thought Cirdan was the oldest elf in ME?

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Once the three rings are gone I don't think it will matter if the three elves could take Sauron or not.

Once the three are gone there would be nothing special about Lorien or Rivendale they become mere places that waves of orcs will be able to assault and will eventually fall.

In fact I would expect to see either Galadriel or Elrond turn. I could see one of the two realms being destroyed along with its leader and the other giving in to temptation and putting their ring back on and succumbing to it.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I thought Cirdan was the oldest elf in ME?

There was a good chance he was. He was certainly one of the older Elves.