LOTR from a gamer's perspective

[WizarDru]

Why didn't that happen when Frodo was climbing the stairs near Minas Morgul? Or at any other point Frodo was high from the ground? Remember that if the eagles had been used, the ring wouldn't have had a lot of time to work on Frodos willpower.

Or if it's as easy as you say, why didn't it do that to Bilbo when he was riding the Middle-Earth sky-cabs in the book Hobbit?

I thought this was intrinsically obvious: I'm a better DM on the fly than Tolkien was. Tolkien was great a pre-game prep, but I totally have him beat on reacting to unexpected player choices. The dude was a total railroader.

If I were to posit why the ring didn't do it at some other time, for the sake of the mental exercise this thread is, I'd suggest that it had lots to do with the ring perceiving an opportunity and it's relative value to that action. To wit: when it slipped Isildur's finger, it was near the presence of an orc ambush and had the chance to stay off of Isildur's finger for good. Isildur was a threat, because he might actually be able to use the ring and bend it to his will, even as it twisted him. He was of the blood of Numenor, after all, and much stronger in power than his distant heir, Aragorn. On the Stairs, Samwise was there...the chance of it disappearing so easily was not there, especially since it had worked it's compulsion too well with the ring-bearer....and as long as the ring-bearer kept going towards Mordor and it's master, it's all to the good.

We don't know, of course, how powerful the rings compulsion could be or how quickly it might work on someone. Their personal spirit and susceptibility seemed to increase at a similar rate. Aragorn, Elrond and Gandalf all chose to forgo the ring, fearing how quickly they might succumb. Boromir fell under it's spell quickly, and he never even touched it....for all we know, it summoned him through his dreams.

The ring has far more than an hour to work on poor Frodo. It's been working on him since he left the Shire, after all (technically well before that...for 17 years or so, however weakly). Even after the Council, it's still a ways to travel on foot with the Fellowship to a place where the eagles will bear him swiftly. This begs the question, if the ring is so weak, why doesn't Gandalf just grab it from Frodo at the last part of the trip and take it with him? Obviously, that's not Gandalf's job, for one...he's there to AID the men and elves, not do their work for them. But it's also because he fears how quickly the ring might corrupt him...stronger beings are corrupted more easily. This is one of the reasons that Frodo is given the ring, that and the purity of his heart, which makes it much harder for the ring to manipulate him the way it did Smeagol. But if the ring was powerful enough to compel Smeagol after a few minutes and constantly temp Frodo after a couple of weeks of wearing, it's not hard to believe it could push events slightly, given the chance.

In the case of Bilbo and the Hobbit, there are plenty of reasons why it might not have done so. One of which is that when the Hobbit was written, it was just a ring, not The Ring. I'm sure I could think of some reason, again for the sake of mental exercise.

I'm certainly not going to try and argue that the 'eagle' idea doesn't have merit, either. It's a fun exercise, but frankly any story that stands for over fifty years as the pinnacle of Fantasy is going to show cracks, due to the massive scrutiny Tolkien's work gets. I mean, if his son can compile a series of letters, criticisms, edit and scholarly examinations of his fathers work that is easily five times larger than the actual work...well, you know.

 

[Crust]

In the case of Bilbo and the Hobbit, there are plenty of reasons why it might not have done so. One of which is that when the Hobbit was written, it was just a ring, not The Ring. I'm sure I could think of some reason, again for the sake of mental exercise.

The Hobbit (Del Rey paperback edition), pg. 81:

"'My birthday present! It came to me on my birthday, my precious.' So he had always said to himself. But who knows how Gollum came by that present, ages ago in the old days when such rings were still at large in the world? Perhaps even the Master who ruled them could not have said. Gollum used to wear it at first, till it tired him; and then he kept it in a pouch next his skin, till it galled him; and now usually he hid it in a hole in the rock on his island, and was always going back to look at it."

The above passage is strong evidence that Tolkien, roughly 20 years before Fellowship was published, knew that Gollum's ring was more than a golden ring of invisibility. In fact, the above passage even suggests that the ring was fed up with Gollum (it wanted a new wearer, someone who would take it closer to Sauron), and made it so that Gollum was sickened by its touch (as the ring was probably sickened by Gollum).

Certainly throughout The Hobbit, readers who have already read LotR would ask, "Is the ring affecting Bilbo at all, or is it his 'Tookish' side that allows him to become the confident leader of Thorin's band of dwarves?" Perhaps it was simply the confidence of being invisible that gave him greater courage, but that's also a form of temptation. Who can resist being invisible in this world of strangers?

I think the continuity between The Hobbit and Fellowship is pretty strong concerning the ring, because let's remember that Bilbo only had it for less than a year by the time The Hobbit ends. Sixty years later, on Bilbo's 111th birthday, it's clear that his "well-preserved" appearance and his snippy attitude toward Gandalf are evidence that the ring is affecting him.

I also wonder if the ring's proximity to Mt. Doom has anything to do with its power of dominance over its bearer.

 

[molonel]

I think the continuity between The Hobbit and Fellowship is pretty strong concerning the ring, because let's remember that Bilbo only had it for less than a year by the time The Hobbit ends. Sixty years later, on Bilbo's 111th birthday, it's clear that his "well-preserved" appearance and his snippy attitude toward Gandalf are evidence that the ring is affecting him.

I also wonder if the ring's proximity to Mt. Doom has anything to do with its power of dominance over its bearer.

Valid points, and a valid question.

 

[shilsen]

I also wonder if the ring's proximity to Mt. Doom has anything to do with its power of dominance over its bearer.

It's not clear from LotR if it does, but it's quite clear that its connection to Sauron is very strong within Mordor. When Sam, coming to rescue Frodo from the orcs that carried him off, looks into Mordor, he realizes that if he enters while wearing the ring, Sauron will detect him instantly. And neither Sam nor Frodo wear the ring within Mordor till Frodo does so within Mount Doom.

 

[WizarDru]

The above passage is strong evidence that Tolkien, roughly 20 years before Fellowship was published, knew that Gollum's ring was more than a golden ring of invisibility. In fact, the above passage even suggests that the ring was fed up with Gollum (it wanted a new wearer, someone who would take it closer to Sauron), and made it so that Gollum was sickened by its touch (as the ring was probably sickened by Gollum).

Wasn't that from the second edition, though? Tolkien rewrote the entire chapter after he envisioned the Ring as part of the new trilogy and it was republished in 1951. He changed it two more times after that, and said that he had to restrain himself from extensively rewriting the whole thing.

 

[molonel]

Wasn't that from the second edition, though? Tolkien rewrote the entire chapter after he envisioned the Ring as part of the new trilogy and it was republished in 1951. He changed it two more times after that, and said that he had to restrain himself from extensively rewriting the whole thing.

Is that right?

I don't have my books here at work.

 

[cildarith]

Is that right?

I don't have my books here at work.

It is. Check out the Annotated Hobbit, which includes both versions.

 

[molonel]

It is. Check out the Annotated Hobbit, which includes both versions.

Cool.

Learned something new today.

Thank you.

 

[Templetroll]

I agree, of course. I'm assuming that Manwe and Varda are in a position to know ahead of time by virtue of thier wisdom and powers of observation when the critical moment will arrive, ...

Manwe and Varda skipped to the back and read the last pages first!

Way back when, in 79, I had been playing D&D for about a month and a new DM was starting up a campaign. I rolled up a ranger and the DM told me I had a special magic item that needed to be kept secret. It was a ring that had great power and needed to be destroyed. Being new I thought this was cool. We had an ordinary adventure where we met up and headed out on a journey.

During a break we headed to a burger joint; the DM didn't like the place and wasn't there. The other players started talking about how grateful they were that the DM wasn't trying to run his 'Lord of the Rings' BS that he always did. I paid attention and was annoyed but wasn't sure how to deal with it.... until the next time we played.

This player always rolled up powerful psionic characters on 3d6 rolled in order for the stats. :\ Same with this campaign and for some reason he got annoyed with the party. There was a battle and his psionics were kicking everyone else's characters. One guy called for Divine Intervention - his god replied, "Well, you all run. I think I can hold him off until you get away." which was really disheartening!

I plunked the ring on then, went invisible and I told the DM my ranger was summoning the Nazgul to battle the psionic psycho. I'm not sure if they did but my ranger turned into a Nazgul and the mount was there so I started to fly to Mt Doom. The most disillusioned of the party begged me to return so I could carry them to Sauron as a sacrifice. I thought that would make ol' Saurie happy so I grabbed them and headed off to glory! The session ended.

The next week, we were talking about what to play and that DM said he could run. We were shocked, pointing out how Sauron had the Ring, he was Boss Hog in Middle-Earth. The DM replied, "No, he still has to consolidate his power."

And he was serious about that! Very weird. I never played in a game he ran again.

 

[Celebrim]

And he was serious about that[/I]! Very weird. I never played in a game he ran again.

I can't blame you. Sounds like he was a serious control freak, way too single minded, and lacked creativity.

Full disclosure though. Around the same time period (1982 or so), I had an idea for an adventure that involved getting carried off in a whirlwind to the land of Zo, where ruled a Sapphire Wizard. I did some workups that involved such things as Hubgoblins (they had wheels in place of legs). But, I never incorporated it into my play, thankfully. And I say that knowing that it wouldn't necessarily been badly recieved. After all, my adventure inspired by 'Something Wicked This Way Comes' didn't go off that badly.

But even though I think the players liked it, it did teach me not to try to run stories instead of adventures.

We were young then. Those lessons had to come the hard way.