LotR - not much of a war?

[Quasqueton]

So I'm sitting here looking over a big map of Middle-earth. Tracking where the characters have travelled, seeing where the major events have happened so far in the movies. I'm noticing just how big Middle-earth is. It has been 20 years since I read the books, so I don't remember a lot of the detail. Most of my memory now comes from the current movies. Maybe someone could address my questions here:

Regarding the "war":

The invasion of Rohan, and the battle of Helm's Deep, is the first major military action? Less than 3,000 men routed 10,000 orcs of Saruman. A few dozen ents destroy Saruman's "industrial war machine". Doesn't look like Saruman's forces are really all that powerful. All his forces successfully do is pillage some minor villages.

Next movie, I beleive, will have Sauron's forces invading Gondor. I don't beleive it will be a spoiler for anyone for me to say, of course they'll fail to conquer. (Surely no one thinks the movie series will end with the good guys loosing?)

Looking at the map of Middle-earth, where are all those human (assuming their human) soldiers coming from? The ones who nearly discover Frodo and Sam at the Black Gate, and those with the oliphants.

Looking at the map of Middle-earth, there are several more nations besides Rohan and Gondor. Did they ever get involved in the war? I mean, if the failed attempt to conquer just two kingdoms is all that comes of this great darkness and war, it really isn't all that impressive.

Rohan and Gondor are the immediate next-door neighbors to Isengard and Mordor. Did any other nations even know there was a great war and coming darkness? This all looks like if Nazis Germany attacked France and was turned back; Imperialist Japan attacked China and was repelled. Just a footnote in history, no big deal. So what?

Looking at the map, I'm really loosing that "world at war" feeling of Lord of the Rings. In the grand scheme of the (Middle-earth) world, what actually happens is just a very localized event. Not impressive.

Am I missing something?

Quasqueton

 

[Klaus]

There were two major human kingdoms in LotR, Arnor to the North and Gondor to the South. Arnor got destroyed thanks to the Witch King of Angmar (a third kingdom, lost to history, to the north of Arnor). Then you have Mirkwood (Legolas' home), which is an immense forest kingdom, and the Kingdom Under the Mountain (dwarves) next to it. They will fight the orcs coming in from the North, while Dale (south of the Lonely Mountain) will face easterlings and some Mordor orcs. Mordor and the easterlings will also attack Lothlorien, while southrons (those humans that almost saw the hobbits at the Gate of Mordor) will help the Mordor orcs attack Gondor. Rohan, which might have fell to Isengard (the equivalent of a duchy or county), helps Gondor. Likewise, other principalities of Gondor at the coast will send forces to help Gondor while facing the Corsairs to the south.

So you have:
Gondor
Mordor
Harad (the South)
The East
Lothlorien
Mirkwood
The Kingdom Under the Mountain
Dale
City of Corsairs
Rohan
Isengard
Dunland (where those humans of Saruman came from)

That's 12 realms, covering a landmass roughly equal to Europe.

That's war!

What is it good for?

 

[KnowTheToe]

No, as I wathced TTT for the second time, I asked myself this very question.

 

[The Sigil]

Assuming I recall things correctly, here is why it was a "world war."

Gondor, Rohan, the Shire, et al are the LAST line of defense.

http://mume.pvv.org/Images/map-1.jpg

Using a scene or two from the movies to help here...

Remember the soldiers marching into the black gate? The ones that ALMOST saw Frodo and Sam (were it not for the elven cloak)? (Also the ones that were cruising around on the ouliphaunts).

These soldiers were "Southern Men." IIRC, that would be Haradwaith, which was said to have long since fallen under the influence of Sauron. For those of you keeping score, that's all the land south of Mordor and Gondor.

Also, you might remember Sauruman provoking "wild-looking" men to war with Rohan. These, IIRC, were wild men (from the Wilderland, north of Mordor and south of Mirkwood).

A few other notes:

Mirkwood, as I recall, was under attack by orcs (as I remember it, Aragorn captured Gollum and the elves of Mirkwood took him into custody - it was during a particularly nasty orcish raid - when casualties were high - that Gollum escaped. This was the reason Legolas was present in Rivendell - he was reporting to Elrond that Gollum had escaped). So clearly, the northeast area of the "map" of middle earth was having difficulty with the forces of Sauron. Not to mention the trouble Mirkwood had with spidery descendents of Shelob (documented in the Hobbit).

I could be wrong, but I believe in the books, Gimli relates to the council of Elrond that the dwarves (in the Lonely Mountain and the Iron Hills) are sorely pressed by the forces of evil.

Also remember from the Hobbit that there were troubles in the mountains betwixt Mirkwood and Rivendell... orcs and wargs were on the prowl there, as well. Obviously, Moria (further south along the same mountain chain) had considerable problems.

The Iron Hills were, IIRC, peopled with dwarves who were having difficulties of their own warding off attacks by orcs and goblins.

Furthrermore, take a look near the north side of the map - you may note a reference to Forodwaith and a reference to the realm of the Witch King of Angmar (the head of the nine ringwraiths). This was said to have been a great source of trouble round about the time of the Hobbit (c. 50 years prior to the start of the LotR trilogy).

It may also behoove you to recall that during the battle for Minas Tirith, the Black Fleet arrives (from the North). The fear was that Sauron had conquered the northern lands and had called reinforcements (avoiding spoilers deliberately here), hence the dread in Gondor at the appearance of the black fleet.

And of course, you have the treachery at Isengard. Why could the ents so easily dismantle Isengard? Because the army that would have defended it was gone (at Helm's Deep). I could be wrong, but I seem to remember the ents in the books "herding" masses of trees to help out; it wasn't just a couple of dozen ents but ents together with all the trees they could muster (this, BTW, is why, IIRC, treants in D&D have the ability to animate trees).

Remember, Eriador (the prime area for "help") is largely an empty, fallen kingdom. It is patrolled by the rangers (see below) but is not a source of any great population density.

Thus, by the context clues provided in the book (above), we see that the war is in fact "worldwide" (well, continent-wide, anyway). Why was the Shire insulated from all this? Well, in the books, we are told that the rangers (the Dunedain) took great pains to deliberately hide and protect the Shire (and Bree) from the incursions of the enemy; but the connotation is that even though the Shire is somewhat pleasant, the rest of the world has been at war for some time and it is only through the great pains taken by others that the Shire has been uninvolved.

I think that's what you're missing (and what's missing from the movie) - the constant reminders that just about everywhere else is just barely holding on or has already fallen under the sway of evil. The elves (Mirkwood, Lorien, and Rivendell), men (Gondor, Rohan, rangers/Dunedain), halflings (Shire), and a few dwarves (mostly at the lonely mountain) are about all that's left to challenge the might of Sauron. Had Sauron won, that would have been the end of Middle-Earth - the elves might have fled to the gray havens and then to the west, but even Tom Bombadil would have quickly succumbed.

In other words, this isn't the story of Germany taking France. This is the story of Germany controlling continental Europe and trying to "finish the job" by grabbing Britain. That we only see the attack on Britain in no way diminishes the fighting that went on before; it's just that our little view of Middle Earth is concentrated in one particular geographic region; that we get only hints of what is going on elsewhere is not surprising. The heroes of the story are, by and large, in one region; what reason have we to concern ourselves with Mirkwood or the Iron Hills or the Haradwaith? We don't have heroes to follow there.

LotR isn't really about the beginning of the war of the ring. It's about the very tail end of it... consider the story of WWII told from 1930-1945 versus 1942-1945. The focus of the action is in a very different place in 1942 than 1939... because what happened in 1939 is fait accompli by the time we pick up the story in 1942.

--The Sigil

 

[Quasqueton]

Thanks Klaus and Sigil, for the explanations. It does help clear things up. But why did Sauron and Saruman wait to take on Rohan and Gondor last? I mean they are right there, easiest to get to.

The movies really did not give this impression of the world situation (already mostly conquered).

Using the WWII analogy again, its like Germany having control of France, North Africa, etc. and *then* invading the Netherlands and Belgium.

You know, I think I'd buy and read a book that explained the Middle-Earth history in a more "standard" voice/prose. I just can't easily read Tolkien's Simurillion (sp?). I really don't even want to read LotR again -- it's just too difficult for light reading. And I highly enjoy reading (real-world) historical books.

Quasqueton

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Rohan & Gondor may be the closest to Morder, but they're also the hardest to conquer -- with Gondor itself being the last realm of the Numenoreans, who defeated Sauron *twice* in the Second Age.

Most of Mordor's allies are to the south and east off the map, and most of the attacks on the other realms (Lothlorien, Mirkwood, Dale & the Lonely Mountain) take place roughly at the same time as the attack on Minas Tirith. (A correction, too, to a previous poster: the Black Fleet is from the south, manned by the Corsairs of Umbar).

Remember, it's a pre-industrial society, and western Middle Earth was rather severely depopulated during the last Age. It takes a long time for the forces on both sides to build their strength. The movies speed up the pace -- but it's roughly 80 years between when Sauron finally returns to Mordor (after biding his time in secret in Dol Guldor) and when he attacks.

The analogy to western Europe in WWII is apt -- but I'd liken it more to Germany simultaneously attacking the low countries, France, and invading Britain. Sauron built his forces to their peak before taking on his most perilous enemy.

 

[Daiymo]

I think the WWII analogy doesn't really fit for Middle Earth, given as Olgar stated, Middle Earth is really a Dark Age level technology society, and the pace is much slower..

As far as attacks on other realms, the war was a "world" war. Its just that the movie, and for that matter the book, doesn't focus on this. Lorien, Mirkwood, Erebor, and Dale are all attacked about a week before the final push in directed toward Minas Tirith. This is because Aragorn exposes his face to the palantir, and pushes Sauron in action.

As to why Rohan and Gondor were attacked last, in a way they weren't . Sauron had been working for nearly a thousand years before the events in LoTR to retake ME, even without knowledge of the One Rings survival. He kept goblins in Moria to harass the dwarves, for instance. He established himself(as the Necromancer) in Dol Guldur, which was a base to threaten the elves and to hide.

Also, Sauron had spies and agent, all over Middle earth, including Wormtoungue, who worked as "fifth columnists" to weaken the free peoples. And he was constantly attacking Gondor throughout the Third Age; his attacks conquered Minas Ithil, (Minas Morgul), harassed Osgilaith, and even caused the death of the last king at the hands of the Nazgul, which began the rule of the Stewards.

In other words,I echo Sigil's point: the pace of this war took centuries, and it took a long time for the good guys to even realize it was a returned Sauron who was behind it all.

Also, Quasequeton, if your looking for a shorthand history of ME, I recommend The Atlas of Middle Earth, which not only has great maps, but gives a thumbnail history of all the Ages, with explanatory maps.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[Eben]

Also: Middle Earth is in a state of decline during the war of the Ring. The north is as good as depopulated. The Elves are leaving en masse for Valinor. Demographics in Gondor are all twisted (in the first chapter of RotK, Beregond says to Perrin that there are fewer children than before: the blood of Numenor is failing.)

If you compare this war to the war of the last alliance and the was of the Silmarils, I think you are right. Sauron is after all only a servant of Morgoth and during the war of the Ring he is only a shadow of his former self, having lost the ring.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Sauron had many tens of thousands (at least) of orcs, trolls, beasts, and men at his command.

Forty thousand of these were at Minas Morgul, formerly Minas Ithil of Gondor.
Tens of thousands were available from Harad and Khand, to the south and southeast of Mordor.
Tens of thousands more, and the largest navy in Middle Earth, were available to him at Umbar, south of Mordor.
Tens of thousands more were available as foot soldiers from Rhun and Dorwinion, east and northeast of Mordor.
Sauron had tens of thousands of orcs, beasts, and spiders in Mirkwood and at Dol Guldur.
He had thousands of orcs available from Moria and the Misty Mountains.

Sauron's main reserves were in Mordor itself, at the start of the War.
Indeed, these were in Mordor, and not deployed, because Sauron launched his war prematurely, throwing his outer forces at his foes in an effort to halt any mastery of the Ring by Aragorn (a process which required time.)
These main forces were at least fifty thousand strong, but it was likely Sauron has over one hundred thousand warriors available to him in his core forces.

Isengard, MUCH weaker than Mordor, could deploy ten thousand combined Uruk-Hai, more mundane orcs, wargs (great wolves), and had the aid of Dunland, which sent thousands of men against Rohan.

- - -

Gondor had many thousands of men available to defend it's capital city, Minas Tirith.
However, Gondor's main forces were dispersed across the Realm, and amounted to tens of thousands more.
Gondor also had an army, thousands strong, of undead warriors, which Aragorn successfully summoned.

Rohan, weaker than Gondor, had over ten thousand mounted warriors, and probably several thousand foot.
Rohan lost hundreds, perhaps over a thousand, of her men fighting Saruman, but her main forces emerged from that war intact.

The Ents numbered only a few hundred. The Huorns they commanded numbered in the thousands, and a single walking tree (Huorn) was certainly worth many two legged foes in combat.

Lothlorien commanded several thousand elven warriors, of which only a part were sent to Helm's Deep (none were sent in the book.)
Galadriel, through her use of the Ring of Adamant, was able to strengthen her warriors and the defenses of her Realm in various unspecified ways.

Thranduil of Mirkwood commanded at least ten thousand elven warriors, all of them foot soldiers, accustomed to fighting under the trees of the forest.
(Legolas was Thranduil's eldest son and heir.)

Dain, King Under the Mountain, had thousands of dwarves at his command.
His ally, King Brand of Dale, had thousands more of men at his call.
Esgaroth Upon The Long Lake, could boast a sizeable militia of over one thousand.

The dwarves of the Iron Mountains had thousands who could stand at arms.

The Beorns of the Vales of Anduin only had hundreds, but many of them were Were-Beasts, and one of them was worth dozens of foes (even Uruk-Hai) in battle.

Gwilhir Lord of the Eagles had many hundreds of giant eagles at his command.
One of them was worth many two legged foes in combat, as was proven in the Battle of Five Armies.

Elrond of Rivendell had several hundred Noldor at his command.
ONE Noldorian elf was the equal of dozens of the foe, at the very least. Some of them were equal to hundreds of the foe (such as Glorfindel), putting the likes of Legolas to shame.

Cirdan of Linden undoubtedly had several thousand elves, both Noldorian and otherwise, at his command.
Unfortunately, these elves were dispersed and uninclined to become involved in the affairs of Middle Earth. Rather, they contented themselves with their sheltered, peaceful land west of Eriador and protected by the Mountains of Lune.

The dwarves of the Mountains of Lune (the Blue Mountains) undoubtedly had several thousand warriors available for muster. (Remember that these mountains once housed Belegost and Nogrod.)

The Shire, had it REALLY tried, could have mustered an army thousands strong.
Although hobbits are not the best warriors, they are courageous and exceedingly hard to kill, and their marksmanship is second only to the elves.

- - -

FIRST MOVES OF THE WAR

When Sauron was confronted by Aragorn in the Palatir, he saw Isildur's heir, wielding Narsil, and undoubtedly wearing the One Ring.
Sauron knew that, given time, Isildur's Heir would obtain enough mastery of the One Ring to use it to build great armies, dominate the Nazgul and tear them from Sauron's grasp, and otherwise be quite annoying.
Sauron determined to launch his war prematurely, to disallow any time for Isildur's Heir to make use of the Ring.


Harad sent forces to strike along all of the coasts of Gondor.
Harad sent forces north to reinforce Mordor against Gondor.
Khand sent forces northwest to reinforce Mordor against Gondor.
Umbar sent it's Black Fleet to the aid of Mordor against Gondor.

Mordor deployed the Morgul Host against Minas Tirith.
Mordor deployed it's small but ready Morannon Host against Cair Andros, to cross the Anduin to cut off Rohan.

Dol Guldur sent a large force south against Rohan.
Dol Guldur sent another large force against Lothlorien.
Dol Guldur stirred up the evil things of Mirkwood, then sent reinforcements to them, and this force assailed Thranduil and his wood elves.

The orcs of the Misty Mountains assailed Lothlorien.
The orcs of the Misty Mountains assailed the Beornings.

Rhun and Dorwinion sent one force west to aid Mordor against Gondor.
Rhun and Dorwinion sent their other force against Esgaroth, Dale, and the Lonely Mountain.

The Core Armies of Mordor could not be deployed in time, and remained in Mordor, awaiting events.

The Iron Mountains were not attacked (although they sent aid to the Lonely Mountain.)
Rivendell was not attacked. (In the book, Rivendell sent no aid to anyone.)
The Shire was not attacked (and the Shire certainly did not aid anyone.)
Linden was not attacked (nor did it aid anyone.)
The Dwarves of the Blue Mountains were not attacked (nor did they aid anyone.)
The Eagles were not attacked (nor did they aid anyone.)

These were the initial moves of the War of the Rings.

RESULTS:

The assault by Harad upon Gondor's coasts was repulsed.
Harad's force sent north to aid the Morgul Host was destroyed.
Khand's force sent northwest to aid the Morgul Host was destroyed.

The Fleet of Umbar was captured by the Host of the Dead of Gondor, and the Corsairs were killed.

The Morgul Host was victorious at Osgiliath, and against the Causeway Forts, then was subsequently destroyed. The Black Captain was killed.
The Morannon Host was victorious at Cair Andros, overran Anorien in Gondor, and manned the road to Edoras. This Host routed and fell back to Cair Andros after the Morgul Host was destroyed.

The Host of Dol Guldur sent against Rohan was intercepted by the Ents and Huorns and destroyed.

The Host of Dol Guldur and it's allies of the Misty Mountains battled Lothlorien, and the result was heavy losses on both sides, with considerable destruction along Lothlorien's borders. An unresolved contest.

The battle for the Vales of Anduin against the Beorns raged unresolved.

The Host of Dol Guldur and it's beastly allies assailing Thranduil was defeated and withdrew.

The Hosts of Dorwinion and Rhun were victorious, conquering Esgaroth and Dale. The Lonely Mountain was besieged, and both Dain and Brand were killed.

Victorious Gondor suffered thousands killed, and many more wounded.
Victorious Rohan also suffered thousands killed, and more were wounded.

SECOND MOVES OF THE WAR

Gondor and Rohan sent fully half of their remaining force against Mordor.
Gondor and Rohan reinforced Minas Tirith with the other half of their remaining force.

Mordor brought up it's core forces to the Morannon to confront Gondor and Rohan.
Rhun's forces sent to aid Mordor were combined with the core forces of Mordor.
All the surviving elements from Harad and Khand were combined with the core forces of Mordor.

Umbar was out of the war (especially after news of what the Army of the Dead did to their Fleet was brought to them.)

Dol Guldur pressed the assault on Lothlorien.
The orcs of the Misty Mountains pressed their assault on Lothlorien and the Beornings.

Dol Guldur made no move this round against Thranduil.

Rhun and Dorwinion pressed the Siege of the Lonely Mountain.

The Eagles flew to the aid of Gondor and Rohan against the core hosts of Mordor and it's allies.

RESULTS:

Well, the results did not occur, because the Ring was destroyed, and Sauron with it.

LIKELY RESULTS:

The annihilation of the combined forces of Gondor and Rohan at the Morannon. The death of Aragorn, Eomer, Elladan, Elrohir, Prince Imrahir, Legolas, Gimli, Pippin, and many others.
Severe losses for the eagles as they were driven off from the slaughter at the Morannon.

Lothlorien once more beats off the assault from Dol Guldur and it's allies.
The contest for the Land of the Beornings remains in question.

Umbar is terrorized as the bad news reaches them concerning their fleet.

Thranduil is unassailed, able to reinforce his defenses.

The Lonely Mountain continues to hold out against the Siege of Dorwinion and Rhun.

EXTRAPOLATIONS OF LIKELY MOVES

The Ents move to hold the line of Anduin, to protect Gondor and Rohan.
The Eagles move to aid the Ents.

Minas Tirith braces for another Siege.
The people of Rohan fortify their mountain retreats and Helm's Deep, and evacuate Edoras.

Thranduil assails Dol Guldur.
Thranduil sends a second force to free Esgaroth, and break the Siege of the Lonely Mountain.

Lothlorien joins Thranduil in the assault on Dol Guldur.

The Beornings repulse the orc invaders, driving them back to the Misty Mountains.

Linden sends all of it's forces to aid Gondor. These deploy at Minas Tirith, and up and down the Anduin with the Ents and Eagles.

The Dwarves of the Blue Mountains also march to the aid of Gondor.

The Iron Mountains deploy all their remaining forces to break the Siege of the Lonely Mountain.

Mordor sends it's entire Core Force against Minas Tirith.
Harad sends vast reinforcements to aid Mordor.
Rhun and Dorwinion send all their remaining available forces to aid Mordor.
Umbar decides Gondor is more terrifying than Mordor.

LIKELY RESULTS OF THESE EXTRAPOLATIONS

Sauron wins the Anduin.
The Ents and Eagles, and all allies, suffer major losses.
All surviving Ents, Eagles, elves of Linden, and dwarves of the Blue Mountains, retreat to Minas Tirith.
The Second Siege of Minas Tirith begins.

Dol Guldur is whelmed by the combined assault of Thranduil and Lothlorien.
The orcs of the Misty Mountains fall back from Lothlorien.

Thranduil retakes Esgaroth.
In the great battle of Dale, both sides (Thranduil/Iron Hills/Besieged versus Rhun and Dorwinion) suffer staggering losses ... the outcome is unresolved.

In Bree and in the Shire, accurate news finally is heard concerning current events.
In the Shire, the hobbits begin full mobilization of all the people. Non-fighters are sent into hiding.
Bree is evacuated. Bree-Hill is fortified against the coming assault.

The Grey Havens are fortified against the expected assault.
Linden and the Blue Mountains fortify against the expected assault.

In Rivendell, Elrond fortifies for the expected assault (if Arwen went with Aragorn) or evacuates to Linden (if Arwen did not go with Aragorn.)

Although Mordor and it's allies pay dearly to retake the Anduin, their combined force marching on Minas Tirith is of overwhelming size.
Mordor sends what reserve forces it can to deal with Lothlorien and Thranduil concerning Dol Guldur.
Mordor informs Umbar that if they think the Army of the Dead terrifies them, then wait until Sauron's Wrath is turned on them for cowardice.
Mordor demands the orcs of the Misty Mountains maintain the assault on Lothlorien and the Beornings. Mordor also demands the orcs invade Eriador and attack Rivendell.
Mordor sends emissaries to again stir up all the evil in Mirkwood.
Mordor informs Rhun and Dorwinion they must win at the Lonely Mountain, or suffer it's fate.
Mordor sends an ultimatum to Dunland: join up, or else. Dunland joins up, and renews it's invasion of Rohan.

 

[Ace]

That's war!

What is it good for?

HUH Absolutely Nothing Say it Again